Here's the thing... I don't care if you have $10 million in your bankroll. If SOMETHING (and it doesn't matter what) made you literally write down a "goal" of not playing in the $10/$20 NL game... then don't do it. It doesn't matter if your roll can handle it or if you aren't feeling challenged enough or if you are on a rush or if you are tilting or anything else. You set a goal that is 100% within your control. So meet it.

To use JD's analogy, if I made a goal to not drink for a month, you can bet your ass I wouldn't drink for a month. There would be a reason I set that goal, and whatever it was was obviously important enough for me to make a goal... so that would be that - no drinking. Even if I put myself in a situation where I was tempted, I just wouldn't do it.

Maybe it's self control, maybe it's maturity, or maybe it's just a fundamental personality trait, but I honestly don't understand how people can't NOT do something when they've made it a goal of theirs. Don't get me wrong - addiction (like a drug addiction) is different... but for something as simple as "don't play in a certain poker game," when you can't meet that goal for 30 days, I think you have to give some serious thought to finding out why... Addiction is the only thing that makes any sense to me. Other than that, I guess it could be laziness/indifference, but if that's the case, then why make goals in the first place??? They must have meant something to you for you to write them down.

There is your problem. Stop being so focused on the results and the emotional outlets that accompany this numbers game will not come with it. With this goal, you feel entitled to win that much money. If you don't meet it, you are a failure.

I'm sure that you are very competitive, and being a failure is not something you want to be. This competitve nature is really counterintutive to what makes optimal poker play. Competitveness says winning is everything, optimal poker play says just make the best decisions possible at each given interval. These two obviously counteract with one another on a fairly regular basis when playing.

Stop letting your bravado is getting in the way of making sound decisions, and you will probably very soon be a world class player.

A car battery and nipple clamps.

I can relate to the competitive thing in a slightly different way. When i got that big WCOOP hit, i tried to move up a bit too high for my skill level. Instead of recognizing that fact, i got so competitive about succeeding that i spent to long until i dropped down to where i should have been. It wasn't a 'money' thing or a 'gambling' thing - it was all about BEATING a certain level.

I don't regret taking a stab at some of the things i tried. I regret letting my competitive nature override rational decision making. It wasnt me thinking "Man, I am just getting unlucky - if i keep going i will win" type of thing. It was me wanting to make myself good enough to beat the higher levels - and i just wasnt ready yet.

awesome responses, thanks guys, i agree with all of u in different ways.

I think fungus hit the nail on the head showing that to get to where I am today my BR management wasnt the best. Back then I found out I could actually win more $ faster if i wasnt properly bankrolled for the game and I guess this thought is still in my head. I still actually feel like I'm missing out on $$$ I could be winning by playing 5/10 instead of 10/20.

I also agree with you guys stating if I make a goal I should keep it. The reason I made this goal is cuz overall I'm a loser at 10/20 and I would like to keep my losses to a minimum, until I am totally ready to be playing there rather than just taking shots. I guarentee I won't play another 10/20 hand the rest of this month.

I would say in full confidence that addiction is not what is bringing me back. I often just randomly without thinking about it go days without playing when Im real busy hanging out with friends, and I won't think twice about poker the whole time. Usually it actually turns me off to poker, and makes me realize how pointless it is in the whole scheme of life.

You know I ran into someone at Binion's who had just spent the last year of his life playing poker for a living when I was in Vegas. He was a good guy and quite good at poker; he had been busted out of the ME for which he had been backed, and claimed to play poker regularly with a few Miami Heat players in his home town of Miami. But he was talking to a chick and was saying how he had enjoyed playing poker but he just didn't have much to show for it...but I guess that goes for anything in life, and it's all a matter of choice.

See bold above.

If you are a loser at 10/20, why in the world would you think you are missing out on money there by playing a game that you crush instead??? :confused:

Cost/benefit analysis: Time spent playing 5/10NL gains him 1 unit per hour
Time spent losing at 10/20 NL -2 units/hour
Once he starts winning at 10/20NL +2 units/hr

he just has to make sure he starts winning after a while...no? Granted it depends on his long term goals, so if he wants to make 100k by the end of the year, maybe he shouldn't do this until the end of the year...

Um... I guess. But let's simplify this a bit and use actual numbers:

If his records show he wins $100 per hour playing $5/$10 and he loses $20 per hour playing $10/$20, you tell me which "job" he should go to for the next 40 or 100 or 1000 hours.

Seems to me it's a no brainer.

Ok...well like I said it depends on how long it takes him to get to the level of winning he is at at 5/10...if he spends 100 hours playing until he gets to break even...then thats -$2000, and then it takes him another 100 hours to get to the winning level he is at in 5/10, which would be 2*$100, or $200/hours, but since it is a slow curve of growth over those 100 hours after the break even point, so thats $100/hour for 100 hours, or +$10,000.

So trying 10/20 for 200 hours netted him -$2000 + $10000 = $8000
whereas at 5/10 he made $100/hour for 200 hours or $20k, so there is a difference of $12k which is significant, but what if you did it over a 400 hour period?

5/10: 400*$100= $40k
learning 10/20 = 100*-$20 + 100*$100 + 200*$200 = $48k

So in the long run....

Of course it all depends on being able to beat the 10/20NL like he beats the 5/10NL

i get ur point. but seriously, u think cuz ive lost $ overall in a Very tough and high variance game it means its a very simple decision to continue playing 5/10 and not 10/20?

Ya, I'm a overall loser at 10/20, but i dont think it means much. Give me a year and I'd bet by then I'm a significant Winner at 10/20. Like Fungus said, right now in the short term, ya its costing me $. But i dont care about the short term, I'd much rather lose a few thousand playing 10/20 now and improve to be able to beat the game eventually. Seems much better than grinding at 5/10 with no plan to move up. Also, I beleive sessions at 10/20 make my 5/10 game seem much easier.

I know ur trying to make a point, but is this serious? I mean this just doesnt really apply to poker or this situation at all. I have the ability to improve, its not like i get a fixed salary of -20/hr if i play 10/20.

In both cases you are making points for, the logic you are describing would be that I never should have even moved up from 1/2 NL , cuz when i first started 2/4 I got killed. So I really dont agree with what ur saying at all.

If you don't get what I'm saying, you don't get what I'm saying. No biggie. At some point though, you'll realize that EASILY earning $x per month (x = $1000, $10,000, $50,000???) will be plenty for you, and it much more satisfying that having months where you struggle to win $100,000 one month, lose $200,000 the next, and so on and so forth. Especially as a college student. I mean, how much money do you NEED to make to live comfortably month to month?

But anyway, enough of that. The thing for me is this... When you come in here and say that your GOAL for the month is, and I quote:

Don't follow that up by taking said shots and the justifying it and saying you are trying to improve so you can make more money in the long run and blah blah blah...

Your goal wasn't to "Improve my 10/20 game." It was to "not play in the 10/20" game. And you failed. That's ok... people fail to reach their goals all the time... but when it's a goal that is THIS EASY to achieve, I just don't get it.

For example, I am now adding a goal to not play in the $10/$20 NL game this month too. And I guarantee I'll reach it.

Jd
 

you have the same problem I have, I move up levels and try higher limits that im not ready for. The only difference is I bust out my bankrolls and you have managed to keep yours. You are better at stopping then I'am but the fact remains you keep trying to play levels you are not ready for.

I believe you can beat 10/20 [b]eventully[b] but for now you are not ready for it. You have alot of pure talent JD and what you should be doing is just play the level you can beat which is 5/10 and crush it till you are ready to move up.

you keep saying you can beat 10/20 but stop trying to force it and just let it happen when it happens.

He has a good point about stress, I mean its really not worth it at the moment...there will be plenty of other stressors.

i just figured out i play like 1,71036520164 times better when i dont have a big BR at the site im playing at. I just keep cashing out about 1/2 my winnings to neteller and it keeps me in check, and i play alot better and dont be idiotic.

JD - I find this too. I figure it's a psychological thing, where I'm able to make better laydowns if the money seems more "real". It's weird.

Update: +7200 for aug.

Brag
 

Not that it was a particular goal of mine, but I am having the best month ever results wise for cash games this month. +10.5K.

well seeing everyone is posting i am at just about +2,000 for the last 71 days of play. i know it seems like absolutely nothing guys...

but coming from someone who just a year ago cleared 50% of there savings account and obviously did have sorm form of a gambling problem.

to doing a lot of research on here, and picking the brains of all of you here i am proud to report such a big milestone in my poker game.

thanks to everyone

Very nice. You too sjay.

Hmmmm... maybe I should play some cash games this month, since
i have yet to do so.

SO close.

Getting close... man there's a ton of fish at Titan.

its Really crazy how much better everyone is doing since they first joined this site. i honestly dont know where i would be if i didnt find this - as i was a Complete, Brokeass fish when i joined.

i second that, when i first joined i had an attitude that i was the best and needed to no improvement.... 2500 less i realized i wasnt shit and needed to study the game...

between books and the site literally improved trifold....

thanks again...

jd but your improvement is like none other...:thumbsup:

I can't help but laugh at the people who think they are god's gift to poker - ESPECIALLY new, completely unproven players. I just don't get it. With everything else in life - even much less complicated things - people understand that they don't know it all right away and it takes a long time to become an expert. But with poker, Joe Blow scoops a few big pots and thinks he's unbeatable.

I guess it's really good that people think like that though, since those are the guys who end up making the winning players winners. If everyone was as good as they thought they were, no one could ever beat the rake.

From -2000 to +2000 in cash games this month. Fun little swing.

Oh yeah, and Im not doing too bad on the tourney front lately either.

Poker sure is fun when winning bundles of money every night.

+$20K this month, almost doubling my bankroll in one month.

That is one hell of a month. What game/limits/site are you killing?

All 600 NL 6max games,

Bodog - 15K
CD Poker (Titan skin) - 2K
Full Tilt - 2K
UB - 1K

EDIT: I should include that the total sum of 20K includes bonuses and rakeback in the total figure.

Unlike BL I'm going in the opposite direction... 1st half of the month was good 2nd half has been nothing but bad beats and lost coin flips.

My Titan tourney win has put me close to my goal, now to make sure I don't throw it all away. Too bad there's no 'hide 5/10 and higher tables' option.

:D

Earn is earn. Very nice work BL.

Yeah, with a month like that I could take the rest of the year off! :D :thumbsup:

Awsome month.... do you notice any differences in your play or specific things that are working for you?

I'm guessing his "won money at showdown" stat is significantly higher.:D

I fire more second barrels than I used to, and am more apt to being table captain (playing as a lag) at Bodog since they adjust so horribly to it when I do.

are bodog players really alot worse like i have heard?
how many tables can u play at once?

There is definately a direct corollary between the awfulness of the software and the awfulness of the players that play at that site. If you can stand the software, you will enjoy how many calling stations there are at Bodog.

3 is the max at Bodog. Sadly though, they only have full tables (9 max) above 600 NL.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

They largely call me down with anything since I'm running them over so often.

Zybomb makes a good point with his :confused: - Firing second barrels at calling stations isn't typically a good idea. If they are calling you down with anything (Ace high?), I'd definitely be less inclined to bluff - especially twice.

I made a general statement about the amount of calling stations at Bodog compared to other sites. I generally don't two barrel bluff a massive calling station (and I generally stay away from continuation betting if I know they are weak and won't bluff me off if shown weakness). I second barrel bluff against people that I think can laydown second pair if shown aggression. But, if I am playing a maniac style, the people that laydown second pair against me becomes very small, so the amount of calling stations increases. I have been called a moron by at least five regulars because I play too aggressive for them, and they make some idiotic plays when facing me. I hope that made some sense (probably not).

As for results, -3K today. Lost $2K by making dumb moves at 600 NL and then took a shot at 1K NL. I would have been up for the day if I didn't lose a $3K pot as a 85-15 favorite. Sigh.

Actually, that does make sense....

And yikes - that's one big pot. Beats like that go hand in hand with the maniac style though. But those are the kinds of beats you WANT to take once in a while. I know you know this... but getting your opponents to put all their money in drawing that slim, well, you can't ask for anything better than that.

+12800
gogogogogo

Help setting goals
 

I should probably post this in a new thread, but it seems to fit here so,...

The Facts: My current BR is ~$1000. I play casually to build my BR and improve my skill, hopefully to the point that I can start generating some "mad money". I.E.- I have no aspirations of becoming a pro. I play 2-3 hours most nights after the kiddies go to bed. Most of the time I play a couple of $25NL tables or a multi-table SnG (27-45 players, $5-$10 buy-in) with the occasional MTT thrown in on the weekends. I don't use PT or any of it's add-ons to evaluate my play, choose tables, etc. so I have no idea what my $/100 hands or %ROI is. I used to keep my SnG stats in a spreadsheet, but I was never good at recording everything. Most of my BR has been built since my return to poker in May, when it was ~$250.

Questions:

How much am I handicapping myself by not using PT? Will it make this hobby seem more like work, or will counting the money won make me forget about the added work?

Should I be moving up in levels, $50NL and $20 SnG's?

What are realistic goals at this BR and time allowance? Many people posted in this thread about winning $X this month, and I'm sure that's based on the game they play and the number of hours/hands they expect to play, but I don't know how to equate that to my situation.

Yeah, that's enough for now. Thanks.

We are pretty much in the same situation as far as bankroll and the amount of time we can commit to poker. I am lucky to get in 10 hrs a week at this point. I mostly play ring games so my comments are addressed exclusively to that situation.

With that said I can state unequivocally that you are greatly handicapping yourself by not using PT and PokerAce Heads Up Display. They will pay for themselves very, very quickly and then make you much more money than you would if you didn’t have them. Sure they are great for evaluating your own game, that goes without saying. It is things like having the exact % that a player folds to a continuation bet displayed on the table that really helps you make money.

As for making a hobby work-like, it is actually more fun with PT and PAHUD. It allows me to play more tables at once without seeing a drop in the level of my play. I would spend that money right now and get them. If you have the hand histories on your harddrive, I think there is a way to import them into PT once you buy it, but I don’t know about that.

The standard line about bankroll is that you should have 20 buying per level. So to play $50NL, you would need a minimum of 1K. I like having 25 buy-ins and moving down if I drop to 20 buyins. Sometime I switch to 30 buyins per level, but I hate variance and desperately try to minimizing the amount if affects my bankroll.

I dn if I'd call playing 2-3 hours a night "casual". I mean thats a good portion of ur time u could be spent doing something possibly more productive. I'm not saying theres anything wrong with that, but if ur gonna put in that many hours why not stop playing "casually" and really start trying to get much better.
I rarely have a session longer than an hour and rarely get in 3 hours per day.

Wow, this surprises me considering your success! Salud, Don JD.

Yeah, I should've qualified that that I don't play every night,after all I do have other interests. Their 'productivity' is arguable, especially if you ask my wife. Friday and Saturday nights are a given (unless my my buddies are holding a jack-ass poker, and I use the term poker loosely, game), and usually 2-3 of the other 5 nights a week. Although your point is well taken. What are your recomendations for trying to get much better? Reading books? Reviewing hand histories? Analysing PT stats? Using a sim program such as Wilson? Or, putting in hours at the tables?

This all should have been a new thread, for sure... but it's here now, so.....

Yes, do yourself a favor and get Poker Tracker and PAHud - both well worth the money. To improve, read and post a lot here :) then read books, and of course play play play play play.

As for what games you should be playing, stay within your bankroll and move up as you ca nafford it. This will make the decision making easy for you and will all but guarantee that you won't go broke.

reviewing hand histories couldnt hurt, i have never analyzed PT stats besides $ won and BB/100.

mainly reading books - and actually thinking about what you are reading. i think that helped me the most out of anything. also putting in hours is very important, and thinking of ways u could have won more or lost less money after each session and applying it to the next session.

Results for August:

5/10 lhe: 7,500 hands, -0.69bb/100: -$530
10/20 lhe:10,600 hands, 2.6bb/100: +$5,530
15/30 lhe: 3,700 hands, 4.27bb/100: +$4,700
30/60 lhe: 750 hands, 1.5bb/100: +$700
75/150 lhe: 66 hands, -23bb/100: -$2,280
$.5/$1 NL: 130 hands, 47bb/100: +$130
$2/$4 NL: 800 hands, 32bb/100: +$2,100
$3/$6 NL: 750 hands, 13bb/100: +$1,200
$5/10 NL: 500 hands, 0.14bb/100: +$13
$10/$20 NL: 127 hands, 43bb/100: +$2,200

Donkaments: mostly $50 headsup matches: +$800
Rakeback: +$2,800

Overall: +$16,500