Continuous Shuffle - Online poker RNGs...
 

I was wondering about Full Tilt's Random Number Generator (just out of curiosity), so I emailed them about it. The response I got pointed me , which confirms what I suspected.

In live play, the deck is shuffled and the order of all the cards is fixed throughout the hand (obviously). Cards are then dealt out as needed.

Online, it's more secure (and more efficient) to continuously shuffle the deck. No, it's not literally, actively shuffling, but the order of the deck is not preset. When cards are needed, then RNG selects random cards from what remains of the active deck and displays them, creating a "new" deck (less cards in it) for the next request.

What this means is there is no such thing as rabbit hunting online. In other words, if you fold 22 preflop, and the flop comes A22, no, you would NOT have flopped quads against the other guys Aces Full had you played your 22. Because by clicking "call" instead of clicking "fold," the timing of the hand would have been thrown off, even if only by a fraction of a second (let alone how that would change the timing of the action behind you).

In a way, I like this, because it means the cards are being dealt in a truly random fashion, which is how you should think about poker anyway. But quite honestly, I really don't like it. What I like the least is that when my opponent shoves in with a flush draw or a gutshot or an underpair to my overpair or whatever the case may be, the TIMING of me clicking call with literally affects if he will get there or not. It's like a slot machine. If I click call right NOW, he gets there. If I had waited one millisecond longer, he wouldn't have.

I know it shouldn't, but that really irks me. I don't want to have any control over what's coming.

I strongly dislike this as well. I dont have time to elaborate now -- but I think that is awful

lol.

Yeah, and if you had just stayed home instead of going to get milk at the store, you wouldnt have got in that car wreck.

Elaborate when you have time.

FWIW, if I was running a poker site, I would do it this way. It's MUCH more secure to do it like this. If the deck is preset in advance, there is the possibility that someone could crack the algorithm and know what the other players hold and/or what is coming next. It's a very small possibility, but it is there. With the continuous shuffle, this is impossible.

But yeah, as a player, I don't like it.

You say this as a joke, but you don't understand how my mind works. Ever see the movie "Sliding Doors?" In a nutshell, my brain WANTS to think like that - not always focusing on the negative, mind you. For about as long as I can remember (long before I even knew what it was), I've been aware of the , and I don't really like it. Maybe it's a little bit of OCD or something, but I seriously need to make myself not think about it, or I think I'd go crazy.

Meh.

Yes but if you randomly order the cards there is no algorithm,
you just have to worry about it getting hacked somehow, which is the biggest concern.
I think I would rather for security just have them do it randomly.

You understand that it takes an algorithm to "randomly order the cards," right?

I wish I hadnt read this.......My mind will be going crazy (er) with conspiracy theories even more now.

Damn you TP:mad:

sw

You think too much. I mean, it's probably as close to random as any computer can possibly get. So, what does it matter?

Of course, if you are actually autistic enough to time how long you take to call the shove and can find a good range (say 5-10 seconds), I'd be happy to take interest in your theories...purely for the scientific reasons of course.

Some of you people are dumb.

I believe slot machines work the exact same way. In other words, if you're sitting next to some bum in a casino who hits a jackpot, there's no guarantee you would have hit the jackpot had you been sitting at that same machine. You would have had to have pulled the lever at the exact nanosecond he did in order for the random number generator to stop at the exact same point.

I was a math major, I know approximately how they go about doing it. (Edit - yeah, yeah, yeah)

If I had to bet, I would've put money on English.

with a minor in something that is also not english... (edit: damn pshabi...)

Splain, please.

(As I assume you mean me, Zy, and drew)

And don't get me wrong, I understand that its completely fair. I just don't like it.

Exactly. And that's why I said I now feel like I'm sitting at a slot machine when I'm pressing the Call button.

And I don't like slot machines.

Slot machines are designed to pay out a certain number of times over a set period of time. Correct?

I doubt the RNG is designed to hit a certain number of hands per hour.

The likelihood of each event is still the same. So, timing down and then calling will still have the same effect long term of the next card being an A as folding.

Huh? No one was suggesting that the RNG cared about the board cards and people's hole cards. But yeah, it's supposed to deal a Jack x% of the time or a :c: or whatever, and I'm sure it does exactly that over the long run.

All I am saying is that I don't like the fact that if I am trying to dodge on of the two remaining Jacks or a :c: flush draw or whatever the case may be... I don't like that the TIMING of my action actually controls the end result of the hand. I realize it's just as random as a predetermined sequence in the deck and this is a stupid thing to not like, but as a player who doesn't consider himself particularly "lucky," I still don't like it.

As for the slot machines comparison: Yes, they are set to pay out a set percent of the money they take in over a set amount of time - again, in the long run. "99% payouts!!!" It's not like they pay out big every 42 minutes exactly though. They can pay three times in a row or not at all for hours. Their internal RNG (that's basically what it is) will still end up paying out exactly as much as it's supposed to in the long run.

Correct. But you absolutely can NOT do what just about everyone does, which is rabbit hunt - had you timed down and called instead of folding, the next card WOULD be different (well, other than the rare times that the exact same card is selected by the RNG).

In the long run, yes, you will flop your set 12% of time time or whatever it is.... but looking at each individual opportunity, YOU actually control if you will flop it this time or not. Yuck.

Again, I understand exactly how this works and agree that it is the most fair/secure way to do it.

There seems to be a general assumption that time has a profound effect on the result of the RNG. That assumes that the actual system clock is being used as a seed for the RNG, which doesn't have to be the case at all.

When the RNG is called and provides a result that result could easily be the same no matter when it's called. To explain better - if the RNG has provided 48 results so far then the next result would be #49. The value of #49 might have nothing to do with when the RNG is called to produce result #49 - it could be that #49 will contain the same value whether it's call now - or now - or --- now...

In that case, it makes no difference when you click the button - you have no control, or influence, over the outcome at all.

Now, it's likely that it uses a clock, I'm just saying it doesn't HAVE to use a clock. In any event it's unlikely they would ever reveal what they use for a RNG for security sake.

It uses a clock.

The whole point is that that are continuously shuffling (effectively) the remaining cards in the deck.

I think you think to much.

Please choose desired response:

1. Agreed.
2. Look who's talking.
3. Is there such a thing?

Too pls.

Cause I have a response for that one.

THIS is my elaboration

YUCK

You people that hate this probably also get mad at people in blackjack that play suboptimally and take your cards when they shouldn't have. If that is the case, you are all geniuses.

lol... yes... yes i do (I do realize longrun it makes no difference yes)

That isn't exactly what Howard said. What he said was that the remaining cards are shuffled during the action. Obviously that could mean the cards are continuously shuffled, but he didn't actually say that they are, the cards could simply be shuffled once during the action to prepare for the next card.

:D :D This is hands down the funniest thread EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!

:p :p :p :D

Yeah right up there with eejits blackjack system.

I dont get all you morons who say this isnt a big deal. Of course it is. If this is all true, then.....

When I fold a pp or a suited ace to a donk raise, and the flop comes with what "would" have been a set or nut flush, I cant "justify" losing my bloody mind, ranting and raving, and "rightfully" thinking I am jinxed.;)

Since NOONE has control over the outcome. It doesn't matter.
Since everyone lacks the knowledge to "influence" the outcome, the outcome can NOT be influenced, so it is random.

So as I said before Funniest thread EVER!!!!
:D :cheers: :rolleyes:

Not at all. The same number of times that person "takes my card" and it hurts me, they also "take my card" and it helps me. Plsu, it changes the entire order of the deck, so the next hand is different and so on and so forth.

I've never understood the people you are referring to (the ones who get upset), but I conceed that this is a reasonable analogy.

I think what you aren't getting is that *I* don't want to be responsible for my immediate, short term luck. I'd rather it be predetermined (by immediate, short term luck, yes - but at least with a pre-shuffled, fixed deck, it's out of my control).

Exactly.

And yes, I understand that it's still random and all that... but the point is, when people post hands , for example (the first one that comes to mind), it's actually meaningless. Had RD not taken a bathroom break there and raised preflop, maybe he would have gotten it all in on a completely different harmless looking flop of T55 nd maybe a Jack would have come on the river too, just for kicks. So MAYBE, his seemingly ill-timed bathroom break saved him from being eliminated from the tourney with the Kiss of Death.

The point is, we don't know, and knowing that a continuous shuffle exists, we can no longer - ever - speculate about what might have been had we played a particular hand differently.

If that doesn't bother you, great for you. But hopefully you can see how it could bother some people.

It's ok that you don't understand what we are talking about here, Chip.

Really.

RD could've tripped and fallen trying to get back to the computer after his bathroom break and hit his head on the corner of his computer desk and killed himself.

You're going to have an aneurysm what if'ing yourself to death.

Yes, that is all well and good.

The simple point here that very few people seem to be getting is that for the thousands of times that people in this forum have said/thought, "Oh, I would have made my flush" or "I would have flopped a set" AND just as many times that people have said, "Whew - good thing I folded, because I would have gone broke here" or not thought anything at all because the result was insignificant in their mind......... well, that's all crap. You can't do it, because there is no such thing as a fixed deck.

Yes, it's still random. And no, no one can influence the action any more than anyone else. But the fact remains that online poker sites (at least Full Tilt) us a continuous shuffle, and that changes how we look at the game.

What I find especially strange is that you won't play on Full Tilt, because you run bad there. I know you're joking when you say it, but how many times have you said Full Tilt is rigged on this forum? Half a dozen?

Here's one for you:


Joking or not, you don't play there because you think you run bad there. :confused:

I'm one of the worst for saying things along those lines. Then I gave my head a shake and realize that I made the right decision folding. After all, the goal is to decision oriented and not results oriented.

But yeah, it's one of those things that just...are. There's nothing really that can be done to improve the system.

Great, thanks Mark, now everytime I click on a button I'm gonna be thinking "should I have waited a tenth of a second longer?" :D

Listen to GT... anyone worrying about this is going to eventually book a one-way ticket to the nut house.

You are communicating effectively to me and I have understood what you are saying throughout this thread. I am not trying to break you down, as you know by my PM on this topic.

What you have explained is totally illogical and irrational thinking. The inescapable truth is that any person who is aware that thinking this way is irrational and still allows such thoughts to enter his/her head is indulging himself/herself in feebleminded thinking. If a person does not recognize that it is irrational thinking, or can but still can’t let it go, it is a sign of underlying personality issues and not an issue with the RNG.

Granted this is all just my opinion, but I feel quite strongly that there is not another reasonable explanation. I am happy if anyone can provide one that is rational and logical.

we should do some type of experiment...

like if we call instantly with a flush draw vs waiting 5-10 seconds then call with a flush draw and see how often each one gets there.

maybe just maybe we are missing something here...

You beat me to my responses every time thus far in this thread

It seems a lot of ppl r missing the point here

Now if THIS were the case (it's not) THEN i would be irate!

I guess I'm in that boat because to me random is random is random... whether I have a small hand in it or not, it's still random. The odds will work themselves out over the long term so that with a large enough sample size a tangible shuffled deck will produce the same results as an electronic RNG used at an on-line poker site.

You say it's not the case...so then it doesn't matter how you play your hand. So, why are we discussing this?

I am (and Im sure TP also is) not by any means saying that this system isn't random. Nor am I saying that over the long term it will not even out, nor am I saying that it wont produce the same results as a normal deck given a large enough sample size.

What I am saying is exactly what TP said... that although the long run is uneffected, and the short term luck is still the same (since I can not control it)... I dont like the idea that I influence (be it blindly) my short term results based on how long I take to act. Id rather it be influenced (by short term luck yes) by something I dont have any "control" (I put it " " for a reason ) of.

Will this stop me from playing online poker? No of course not. Am I saying it's unfair... no of course not. I just dislike it. I would rather have it work like an actual deck, be randomly "shuffled" and then have a predetermined order. Just like in a live game, I wouldnt like it if the deck was constantly shuffled while there was action going on during the flop then recut and a turn was placed, then shuffled again while the turn was going on and then cut and the river was deal. Would the randomness be the same? Absolutely. Would I like it? No.

Why do you say you have any control over it? You don't have control over it. Nobody has control over it.

If you had control over it, people would have websites designed to calculate how long you should wait before clicking call to better maximize profit.

It doesn't matter when you click the call button because it's random. It's random if you had clicked it a second earlier. It's random if you clicked it a second later.

Random is random. There is no degree of randomness. And, any difference in randomness based on when you clicked the call button is silly talk.

I throw a die on the ground. One of six possibilities equally likely to occur.

I wait two seconds and throw a die on the ground. One of six possibilities equally likely to occur.

Whether I held the die with the one facing up or shook my hand is inconsequential for the odds of an event occuring.

Like has been said above, if this bothers you...you're what if'ing yourself to death and it's a health hazard.

=======================

I think there is a difference between wanting it more like a live game and feeling that you affect the random drawing of cards by when you click the call button.

Yeah I'm joking about Full Tilt being rigged (although I would be up a lot this year if I didn't play there). I just think Stars is FAR superior to FT in so many regards (support, software, games, cashing out).