Great News
 

Well maybe just for me, but I am excited to tell you all that i have finally.......
learned to play poker WITHIN MY BANKROLL!!!
YAY!
It's so much less stressful, I'm consistently winning, and making cashouts on Poker Stars about once a week.
One question tho - When can i safely move up to the next blinds and tourny buy in's ?
I have a good idea of when i would feel comfortable doing this, but is there any good rule to go by?

How much money do you have?
What limits do you play?
Limit or No Limit?
Full Table, or 6-Max?

Etc etc etc.

Before anyone can help you, we need more information.

If you are so sure that you are playing within your bankroll, wouldn't you know the answer to when it would be safe to move up?

ChumpFish, the everloving smartass. According to Sklansky/Malmuth you are supposed to have 200 BB right? I think that's excessive. I'd say 100BB is sufficient, but what do I know?

eh, it's more like 300BB Gordogg. 200 is definitely not excessive and 100 is definitely not enough.

I dropped 120 BB the first couple weeks of the month at my limit. You can drop 100 in 2 or 3 days if you do it right :) .

This is 3/6 limit, 6-max BTW.

I'd lean closer to 400 or 450 BB for 6-max.

See what do I know? You have to factor in the fish in my opinion. If the games are soft you don't need as many BB. I'm sure many will disagree but that's been my experience.

100 BB is the absolute minimum to take a (possibly brief) shot at a higher limit, but 300 is the rule of thumb.

BTW, BB here refers to "Big Bets" - not "Big Blinds." So, to play $2/$4 limit, for example, you should have a $1200 bankroll (300 * $4).

I think it depends on what type of "fish" you're talking about. The weak tight ones, you don't have to worry about much. But if you get into a juicy game with one or two maniacs, get ready for some variance.

I'm with pshabi for six max limit games. 300 is definately the lowest amount I'd take to a limit game.

You usually post NL hands though, and I don't know much about that, but 20-30 buy ins is what i remember reading. This is talking longterm bankroll mangement/second income though; if you're playing with more expendable money you can obviously have much more leeway.

Exactly. Could be brief, but if the fish are around and you have game, and you don't get bad beated to death, it's enough to work with. If you want to consider getting bad beated to death, you need more.

Ya, I play NL, and I am going with the 300BB to know when to move up. For Tournys i often buy into stuff like 100BB tho, but i have had good turnouts so it's working out.

The 300BB guideline is mostly for limit. For tourneys and NL, I'd stick with my "Never sit down with more than 5% of your roll" suggestion.

For the math-impaired, that translates into having 20x your buy-in. If you play the $50 buy-in NL tables, have $1000 in your bankroll. :)

I think for NL, the guidelines depends on your style of play and how much your starting bankroll is. If your bankroll is only $50 then I wouldn't mind putting it all in one table because:

A) winning 2 dollars on the 5/10 cent tables after an hour is a waste of time
B) Players at the lower stakes more often than not are poor players
C) I'm disciplined enough to lay down a hand to an over bet even if I may think I'm ahead

Yes, it's never really a good idea to place your entire bankroll on one table, but if $50 is all you can afford to put into poker, quit and get out of the game.

I think for players with limited bankrolls or are new players that SNG are by far the best way to learn and earn money. If you keep buying in for 5.50 or so, you'll quickly learn to find a way to get into the money and usually you can get an hour+ at the table without risking all that much.

The worse way to spend the majority of your bankroll is on a MTT. The majority of the payout is in the final table. For people with limited bankrolls this is a poor way to build a bankroll. It's almost like a lottery. You know your shots at winning it aren't great, but if you finish well you're getting a huge payout.

ok
 

I agree with MOST of this except that last part. I think it is possible to build a bankroll through MTT. Good MTT players can place in the money more then 50% of the time. So they are making back their money, and when they, like you said hit it big they build the roll. I have read many blogs about good MTT players that can do this, I'am not one of them Id say I make it ITM about 15% - 20% . Which is by far not enough to build bankroll and will lose me bankroll in the long run.

The only other thing I disagree with is if you only have $50 quit poker, I think starting at micro-limits and working your way up is very rewarding. Think about it say you start with $50 and in a month you move that up to $150 playing say .05/.10, I would be pretty damn proud of myself as a poker play for doing that knowing now I have the bankroll for .25/.50 when just a month ago I was stuck playing micro limits. Now for most of you it would be torture to play those low of limits knowing the average pot is never more then $2 but for a new person or a losing one that would be fine.

Right now I only have $50 online and im playing .05/.10 limit and $1 tornies, right now with all thats going on its all I can afford and im very happy playing those limits. Sure at times its stupid as hell but I also know in the long run the better players will end up with the money. For people with limited bankrolls for whatever reason I think playing lower limits and grinding it out is much better then putting 50% of your bankroll on table and hope not to get sucked out and go broke. Worse thing for any poker player is not having a bankroll to play even if its micro limits its still poker!

Not picking on you ... but this:

"Good MTT players can place in the money more then 50% of the time."

Is wrong.

ok
 

what would you concider a good MTT player would place? Honest question really want answer. Because even at say 40% he could still make money in long run dont you think. Not saying this is the road I would recomend someone taking, but do you think it is possible for a good MTT player to do?

To be honest w/ you, I don't know the ITM percentage for "seasoned" professionals... or even top amateurs, for that matter...

But think about it - 50% ITM? No way. I read on RGP that MTT players have to get used to long stretches w/out reaching the money. It's the nature of the beast. Of course, one good MTT, and you are back in black.

It only takes 1 tournament out of 20 to pull up that ROI.

Look at Daniel Negreanu at this yrs WSOP...

He is prolly one of the best players in any tourney he enters and he played 20+ of the events and only cashed in 1 or 2 of them.

You could go months without a cash in a MTT but then you will go on a tear where you make 4-5 FTs in a month.

Look at Jesus, Siedel, Cunningham... Didnt really hear much from them till the WSOP and Jesus made 4 or 5 FTs while Siedel and Cunningham won bracelets and made several FTs.

One of the reasons I don't play MTTs is because I have such a good record at them. 2/7 on FTs and I won one of them.
Well, tonight I am eyeing the freeroll on Paradise and the 1:30 am limit O8 tourney on PS, so that number could change.

agreed
 

I agree with all you that people do go through long streaks of no cashing. I agree my 50% was high but the question I would like discussed about is...."Is it possible to build a bankroll through torney play" . Now im not talking about taking $50 into a $50 torney and cashing big time, Im talking about taking your $50 and enter some LOW buy in tornies and build from there moving up levels everytime you hit a milestone.

Do you think it is possible to do this?

My point with the $50 initial bankroll is, if that's all you can afford to put into poker, then you might as well play on play money tables. If you can't afford to lose money, don't gamble. (I know...poker isn't 'gambling' for guys with experience...but for new players it very much is like blackjack or other casino games, because you are going to have to take a few lumps to learn).

Second point with the MTT, if you plan on making money playing just tourneys, you have to finish final table a few times to make it worthwhile. It's simply not good enough to just make the money. If you make the money in say 30% of all MTT tourneys you play, and have no final tables, you'll more than likely be losing money or breaking even.

There's a good reason why the majority of pros all play side games. The only pro that I can think of that only plays MTT is Chris Ferguson. Maybe TJ Cloutier does as well since he likes playing tournies so much.

Negreanu posted in his blog one time that he doesnt believe you can make money from strictly being a tourney player because of the long droughts, etc.


That point aside, lets cash you play a freeroll on PS and win a seat to a WSOP ME sat then win the sat and make it to the ME then cash at the main event for 100K.

if you continue to just play tourneys, you could easily lose 70-80% of that in no time.

1K entry here, 2K entry there.... a big 5K entry perhaps. If you go 6 months without a big cash (a FT appearance aleast), you going to lose most of your roll.

I feel the need to contribute here because I disagree with a good bit of this. Well, I agree with your MTT advice (hard way to make a living), but it's the A, B, C points you make above that I'm not so sure about.

A) First, winning $2 after an hour might be a waste of time to you, but it might not be to other players.... especially new players who are learning the game and getting a feel for how hands play out. Also, you need to remember, they might not be WINNING $2 per hour, but rather losing $2 per hour. And to say that them losing $20 per hour would be better (less of a waste of time) is just silly - especially when their entire roll is $50.

To me, maybe winning $20 per hour is a waste of time. To Daniel Negreanu, I'm sure winning $200 per hour is a waste of time. The point is, that's all relative, and I don't think it's right to judge anyone for their bankroll.

B) I agree. Sounds like a good place to me to learn how to play.

C) Glad to hear it... that doesn't mean everyone else is... again, especially new players.

My point here is that if somone is just getting into online poker, and decides they will allowcate $50 for their bankroll, I think it would be a HUGE mistake to sit down with it all at once, and I think there is no shame whatsoever in playing the microlimit tables while you are learning to become a winning player.

Well, I am probably the best person to answer ALL these questions about MICRO limits on this blog. I just turned 19. I have Never deposited any $ onto stars. I started out playing Play Money and then sold that PLAYMoney for 70 cents. That 70 cents meant so much to me, I would sit at .02/.04 limit tables for hours trying to hit $2. I dislike limit but i couldnt sit at a NL table with only 70 cents. Once i had $2 i started playing .01/.02 heads up tables. It took about 5 months and soon i had over $100. I know this was nothing compared to what you guys play but i had no way of deposting so i really didnt want to lose it. Soon i had $300 and cashed out $50. Then i started STUPIDLY playing the $1/$2 tables and i lost all my money but $2. I did just Recently learn my lesson tho.
I was pissed and quit playing poker for about 4 months. I came back and bought into a $1 MTT and finished 6th of 2146 and got back up to $85. I play just the .05/.10 tables and the $5 and $10 Sit N Go's and now have $125 in my account after cashing out another $50. I also play up to the $11 MTT tournys, i know thats not within my bankroll really, but i tend to do pretty good at these, making at least some money about 35% of the time, and right, when u hit a final table, you're usually way up, as long as you didnt lose too often from playing the MTT's before.

Wow, that pretty much turned into the story of my poker life, sorry, but i would actually be Very interested to hear your guys stories of how you got started and what not, so I'll just leave it.

I started my poker career with a free $25 that I got from pokerworld... the site didnt have many games only a 25 NL table so I sat down with like $10 of my roll...

I ended up leaving pokerworld with about $400 from just playing smart poker, etc.

Since starting with that $25, Ive made about $4,000 from just playing 25/50/100 NL.

I agree that playing at .05/.10 NL tables seems like a waste now but at the time it was alot of fun because you were playing for real money and were improving yourself.

My question was quite relevant to the original poster...
He states he has finally.......
learned to play poker WITHIN HIS BANKROLL!!!
How would he know if this is true?
Good guidelines: Limit 300BB
No limit 10-20 buy-ins (depending on aggression)
Successful tourney players will "Cash" 20% of the time (20/100)
Of those 20 cashes look for 1 final table on average.
Which brings about the question can someone make a living on MTTs alone?
Theoretically yes, Realistically Probably not.
A proper MTT bankroll should be in the neighbourhood of 100 times the buy-in.
Eg. you want to play $5+.50 MTTs Have $550 set aside for it.
Do people follow this logic? Not often. But there you have it.

As for winning $2 an hour I agree, Complete waste of time.
Pick up nothing but bad habits at the penny tables.
Play Freerolls, as much as possible.
And or play small buy-in SNGs.
After the first half hour or so most of the maniacs are out and you can play "somewhat" realistic poker for free.

After all that, I still want to know how he is so sure he is playing within his bankroll finally ( and for how long) if he is unsure of what "playing within" his bankroll even means. :rolleyes:

WOW, chipfish, can u overanalyze the situation anymore ?
Sorry i ever posted i was playing within my bankroll, I didn't mean it by any numbers or mathmatical formula, i mean i am playing where i FEEL COMFORTABLE. where i am okay with losing as much as i sit with. THAT-alone- is all i need to do to feel WITHIN MY BANKROLL.

Also, you said "Good MTT players look to hit the final table 1/100 times"? I really doubt it. That's a VERY weak goal to shoot for.

Obviously it depends on the size of the field. Let's take an average field of 1000 entries though and say 10 people make the final table. 10/1000 = 1%. I would think a good player could do more than that... maybe 2%. But again, it really depends on the size of the fields.

Boldy boldy.

My point was not to look down at anyone that played a certain level. I still play rather low limits for the times I've spent on the table.

If you're really trying to learn this game, take that 50 bucks and go buy a book or two. Go to play money tables and mess around and see if you can beat those tables. And although many people may think play money doesn't teach a whole, that's probably the best way to learn discipline.

That's why I'm saying if you only want to bring in 50 bucks to start your bankroll, you might as well not start....because you can learn a lot more faster in other ways than at the microlimits.

What he said.

lol...this is starting to sound like a bashing contest.

Seriously, if you're new to the game or just not a very good player right now the best way to learn is:

A) Read a few books
B) Play freerolls
C) Come on to sites like this and talk about hands/situations/ideas/etc
D) When you do start give yourself a good shot by starting with say $200 bucks
E) Learn how to bonus whore - which makes up for many mistakes.

If at the end of all that you find yourself out 200 bucks, pick up a new hobby like golf, because it's gonna be just as expensive for either game anyways.

lol wut the heck ?
Is this directed toward me ?
Starting the game, not a good player ?
All i EVER said was i learned to play within my bankroll.
I dont know how we even got started on all this other crap, oh ya i do, chipfish. I've been playing for quite awhile now, and not saying im great or anything but i'm also not a beginner by any means.

ok
 

I agree with TP here I dont think if you play at low levels you have to pick up their bad habbits. You can still play good poker at low limits and win, Its not a waste of time for some. For alot of people on here they could not play for say a $2 pot but for some they are fine with building a roll through playing low limits.

story of my poker life huh, I read a couple of books and didnt get it. Deposited, lost it, deposited, lost it, deposited, won 2,500 and lost it. Kid got sick couldnt deposit alot so make little $50 deposits and play micro limits. Right now at micro limits makeing about $5 a day and fine with that. Working on my disapline which still is a little shakey.

Nugget as for chipfish, take about 20% of what he says to heart, listen to what he says about torney play because by far he is a hell of a torney player. Sorry have to edit just read what chips said, alot of what he said makes perfect sence, agree with it all but the winning $2 is a waste of time. You say dont play micro limits because you pick up bad habbits but then you say play freerolls?!?!? That makes no sence at all play for money pick up bad habbits but play for free and don't. Just as many bad habbits to pick up in freerolls as micro limits.

my advice play within your bankroll, play good poker and gl.

Easy boys....

JD started this by talking about playing withing his bankroll and the discussion went from there. Windbreaker talked about a hypothetical "only $50 bankroll" and we kept discussing - not talking about JD in particular.

No one meant to suggest you are a new player, JD (nothing wrong with that, of course) or to insult your poker abilities. We all know how good you are. Cause you keep telling us.

PhilMcNugent7 :D

Hey JD....

lol oh wutever i never brag, i am just FINALLY happy with my poker play, and this site is a big reason for it. You're guys advice has helped alot, but really, my poker has always been decent-good, the whole playing within my bankroll thing is what really helped me.
Before i got here, i played for the $ only.
Now, i play to do my best in poker, and the $ is a extra bonus.

lol wow aeq, sweet pick, that is Actually Me. :)
if i really get on ur nerves ill stop posting here, but if ur joking around like i am its all good.

...

How can I be serious w/ something like that?

Calm down a little bit. Thicken up your skin. We're all poker players here to talk about the game and bullshit while we do it. Some of us have been playing for a long time, others are new. Some of us can't spell very good, others used to put side bets on spelling bees in elementary school.

:)

lol, i'm calm, just new here, didnt know if ur just a mean annoyed person, or a sarcastic one, glad its sarcastic.

hmmm
 

for some reason Lou has become funny to me in the last 2 days?!?!


everyone thinks they are good at poker though, honestly I couldnt tell you if im good or not. I probolly still make bad calls and chase when the pot isnt laying me good enough odds sometimes. As long as you are still playing and havent busted out be happy. There is no reason to prove if you're playing good or not, prove it to yourself not us. Im probolly one of the worst players in here, but im still playing within my limits which is what I had trouble with in the past. As long as I keep improving im fine with being called a bad player.

Just take it one step at a time, no need to rush.

and congrats on probolly winning the longest thread contest.

no Lou is just the asshole here, you get used to him the forum wouldnt be the same without him.

The month isn't over. We could get a whole shitload of new members who REALLY WANNA discuss !

lol for real, alot of my threads seem to go on very long, with lots of arguing, usually about something i didnt even start off posting lol.

actully
 

I actully think this thread is very good for anyone that is just starting out playing or is having problems with disapline. I would of loved to read a thread like this when I first started out. You are also correct you can learn alot from certain players on this forum....stick around u might learn something, sorry that sounded
cool.

lol ya, wish i knew how to play within my bankroll about a year ago. Would have made a Huge difference.

I suggest reading that book Lou and I where talking about in his thread about books.

I wasn't talking direct my comments specifically towards anyone. Like I said, this thread is getting out of hand. lol

Actually, I had nothing to do with anyone thinking or not thinking you were "starting the game" or "not a good player".
Nice copout.
In fact, the only person that could have caused such an opinion well, you know him. ;)

I dont know who "him" is, But its all good, dont worry about it. I thought the comments were directed toward me as being a new player, which im not. Maybe i got that idea from the STFU newbie pic. lol

ummm
 

raises his hand.