morality question
 

I am a pretty successful low stakes player. Instead of allowing my bankroll to grow and moving up levels, I usually pull my winnings out in $500-$1000 increments and spurge on some crap that we would never buy if it wasn’t funny-money. (Usually we get a piece of art or something, but the latest purchase was this and a wireless network hookup for it-music in the kitchen is a must- . So I am continuously a $25NL or $50NL player, which maybe the root of my problems.

Every few months I get thinking about the morality of what I am doing. What are all your opinions about the morality of poker? I really struggle with this question. I question the morality of poker because a winning player exploits the mistakes and human weakness in losing players. Without mercy. In this regard, poker can be thought of as a highly evolved form of capitalism. But it is right to be continuously exploiting the human weakness for monetary gain? Sure, some people gamble because they like the thrill, but there are people with gambling problems and people that really can’t afford to be gambling online, and I usually happily take their money. But I kind of feel bad about it. (I don’t want this to turn into some red state/blue state mindless thread, but to answer the question that I will be asked, yes, I do believe that capitalism is a seriously morally flawed economic system. Take any upper-level economic theory class (or read any serious economic study) and you will find that very few argue the moral virtues of capitalism. Instead it is argued, maybe rightly, that morality and economics should be discussed separately.)

My family is moving this summer to Milwaukee. I went out this week to be present at the inspection of the house we are buying. It was awesome to be free of my wife and kids for two days (all those married with young kids know what I mean). I went to the casino in Milwaukee and it totally bummed me out. The card room was full of people that I didn’t want to gamble with. I sat down at a $2/$4 limit table (getting raped by the VIP) and got totally depressed in 2 hours. I left up a little, but completely discontented by what happened. Old people and people that couldn’t afford to be gambling (based on information revealed during conversations) just making stupid plays with crap cards. When I got back to my hotel room I pulled out my money online and figured I’d take a couple of month away from poker to figure out what I think about it.

I respect the poker opinion a lot of the people on the forum and I am interested if anyone else thinks about these issues of poker.

I feel no pity for gamblers:D

I like you stay within the same limits and slurge on the winnings on my family.
I have bought a jumpy castle for my girls A a swingset. and A trip to disney world this april for my family.I would like to thank All the degenerate gamblers
for their contributions.:cool:

i thought every corporation in the world exploits the weakness of humans. so i dont believe there is anything wrong with the people who can earn money on here and im the one donating all my money to the good players.

I don't hold some morally superior attitude because I take money from losing players.

People that cannot afford to "gamble" are mindless morons who will most likely lose their money in some other form (other gambling games, lotteries, some scam, late night infomercials). Why let some other person have their money when I can easily have it?

Old people, why should I care if they lose their money? So the next of kin doesn't have that precious $500 from the death of this old geezer? I'll take that money, thank you very much.

I personally have no issues with the morality of poker. I think of it as a game of skill and strategy. If I can out think my opponent, I win.

You talk about exploiting other players weakness, but you do that in any game as well as in sports. Are these things immoral? Or is it because there is money involved? If it's immoral only because of the money, then don't play for money. Of course, if it's for the money, then professional sports should be considered immoral, as athletes compete for money (and then there is the betting on the outcomes of games as well).

As for people playing when they shouldn't, well, people do stupid things all the time. Are they all immoral? We really can't spend our lives trying to prevent others from doing stupid things. We need to behave how we feel it is the right way to behave.

Anyway, my long drawn out point is, that if you think something is immoral, you shouldn't do it. Especially since morality is such a grey issue. Everyone has different opinions on what they consider to be immoral.

I agree with pretty much everything that everyone above me has said. I'd also like to add that it is VERY unfortunate that some people will become so addicted to the game that they throw away their money week after week with no regard for anything else that may be happening in their lives (or perhaps BECAUSE of what else may be happening in their lives). Unfortunately, one person deciding not to play is not going to make this problem better. Nothing can help those people until those people realize that they need help and actively seek it out. (I can think of one person that frequents these boards that I would say falls under this category and I REALLY REALLY hope that person realizes their problem and gets help)

So I guess what my point boils down to is this: If you only played against people that were in a similar financial situation (or better) as yourself, would you be encountering the same moral dilemma? Or is it only because a great number of the fis...err...people you're winning money from are just too stupid to keep their money? Would you feel poorly about taking money from someone at the table that was extremely wealthy but couldn't play poker if their life depended on it?

What you say is very true - it is sometimes very saddening to go into a casino and you see these people sitting there, hour after hour, dropping quarters into the slots, bellied up to the blackjack table, waiting for a $1/$2 seat open up, and you KNOW that they shouldn't be there. Maybe that's one of the attractions of the internet - everyone is faceless. The guy next to you that is donkey-ing off his chips as fast as he can could be worth millions or he could be playing with his daughter's diaper money. You don't know.

Like Nikki said, if you feel that it's immoral that you absolutely shouldn't do it. That said, there's always going to be someone willing to take a bet, or sit down and deal a hand or two. Why shouldn't it be you?

This is one of those subjects that I could ramble on for ages but I think I'll wrap it up here. I think it's pretty clear where I stand on the issue. It's not as if you are ACTIVELY going out to take advantage of those that shouldn't be playing in the first place (for financial reasons - the ones that shouldn't be playing because they're too stupid, well, they're fair game)

Playing at the limits that you do, I doubt you are taking to many of the compulsive gamblers money. You may get the last of what they had, but if they are that compulsive, they are normally playing higher stakes trying to get that big hit.

As was mentioned earlier in the thread most businesses take advantage of their customers. Do you think the drunk at the bar can afford to keep blowing money on his alcohol? A large portion of eating establishments serve alcohol on their premises. You think the servers and cooks and executives feel bad cause they may be preying on someone's weakness or "sickness"? You think Puff Daddy, Jay-Z or Micheal Jordan feel bad about taking money from urban America for clothes and shoes that most would be wiser to save or spend on a neccassity rather than a comfort item? Poker is a business too.

People blow money on things they don't need but want. It happens. The concern I have about taking people's money is their children. However, If they are gonna blow money needed for them on poker then they are gonna blow it somewhere else.

What a great thread. +Rep.

As I was reading the first post, all sorts of responses came to mind, but I must say, nearly all of them have been addressed by other people already. Great post, excellent replies!

I'm in pretty much the same boat as everyone else who has replied to this thread so far. But I'll take it one step farther...

Rather than giving up poker because you feel it may be immoral, why not donate a portion of your winnings to charity? You don't need to donate 100%, of course, but even if you did 10% or 20% of each of your cashouts (50% if you must), then your poker playing would be DIRECTLY be a positive thing. You'd be taking money from people who many or may not be able to afford to lose it (you have no way of knowing this), but you'd be giving (some of) it to people who DO need it. Pick your favorite charity or church or local homless shelter, whatever.

Ok, thanks for all the replies everyone. Kind of felt dorkish posting about these thoughts and I wasn’t sure how they would go over. I should have known that you all kick ass and would be cool… or we are all dorks. I prefer the former. And I hope that I didn’t come across as a condescending morally superior son-of-a-bitch. I hate assholes like that. At the end of the day, I figure that we are all trying to be the best person that each of us can be (whatever that means) and often for me that means thinking about if pursuing my poker interests in the best use of my time.

The sports analogy doesn’t work for many reasons. The two most obvious are that the athletes on the losing team still get paid and every sport (including boxing, ultimate fighting, etc) have built in rules to protect those that participate.

Maybe I shouldn’t have mentioned the whole capitalism bit. I brought it up in an attempt to head off a discussion that wasn’t germane to what I was trying to say. But I failed to make myself clear, sorry. What I really wanted to say was, yes, in many regards poker can be thought of an almost pure form of capitalism. But that isn’t an argument that concerns itself with whether it is morally correct.

The charity thing is a good idea, one that I already pursue. And I recommend others to as well. But it still doesn’t get to the issue. So far I can sum the arguments that poker is morally neutral as extensions of the concept of free will. I wonder if there is any other, possibly more nuanced, reason?

Morality
 

Morality is usually associated with some faith-based dilemma. You alway seem to be a sympathetic ear around here to most threads. You always bring in the responses aimed towards family wellness and gambling addiction causes and/or treatment. Your like Poker's PEDA or some shit. You make me want to hug a tree or more like needing to hug my kids every time I touch a deck of cards. There is nothing wrong with this, as I like having your Dr. Phil ass around Mel. So when I bring up a topic around here you can coax me into pulling some money from my bankroll and buying my wife something nice.

Poker isn't inherently good or evil. Poker is what you make of it. I make the decisions I feel are right in my life. You can't save the world, you can barely save yourself. I try to do what's right by my family, my friends, and myself and everything else falls into place. Does this mean that I take advantage of everyone I interact with. If you what to get all philosophical, then maybe yes is the answer. My dog loves me, wags his tail, fetches, ands is all around companionable. Does he do this because he actually loves me or some sick symbiotic need for me to nurture him and keep him alive. I would say love. You?

Your morality problem with poker doesn't seem to stem from the competitive nature of poker but more to do with you personally taking money from the people that rightly shouldn't be playing, due to not mentally or monetarily have the necessary requirements to play.

Remedies - get thicker skin and stop sympathizing with everyones plight, play online, and don't be fooled by appearances.

1 - Stop worrying about everyone else. Your there to either make money or have fun. Decide which and stop feeling bad about it. Your personally or morally doing nothing wrong. Your not cheating. They are taking the food from their own mouths. You are just playing your game. That's it Mel.

2 - Online you can't look at someone and empathize with them or their problems as easily. They are just a chip and a chair online. This is rather impersonal, and that is the way you appear to need it.

3 - Don't be so quick to believe what you see or hear at the casino. Poker is about disillusion. What you see is quite often the opposite of reality in poker. Just think tells - strong/weak - weak/strong. People tell you sob stories to get you off guard. People talk tough to intimidate you . You wouldn't believe the rounders that play for a living which show up looking like a fish or in poor clothing to throw you off. When I go to the casino you don't think I show up in poker regalia, (Poker Stars shirts and hats.) No I show up in my "White Men Can't Jump Gear," so they think who's this chump - probably just got done watching WSOP on ESPN and figured he'd bring me money. They're there for one reason and that's to take your money. It's a game - play it better than they do.

Like I said before, I like your posts and how you empathize with everyone, just don't try to make us feel bad about something we like to do.
All my money online is all earnings, having long ago taken my starter moneys off. I don't want to take money off and buy my wife flowers, that's what my paycheck is for. This is My pastime and I want to see just how far this bankroll can swell. And of course I have some illusions of grandeur, (rounding, WSOP, slapping Helmuth around and making him say Uncle.) Those are my pipe dreams, which I hold dear, so don't bring me down with questions of morality. 'Cause, If playin' poker's wrong - I don't want to be right. :D

Naughty, naughty, jillaj, not PC
 

What exactly are you trying to say about urban america?

Don't make me break out the "R" word. :cool: :D

I am saying they don't have the income that one would normally have when spending a significant amount of money clothing or anything else that does not hold it's value.

You can break it out if you like.

just jokin' jill
 

I was just pointing out how it sounded. It could be construed as insensitive.
I could care less. Again just jokin'.;)

that is a very very good idea. I really like that, and would look to do that somewhere in the future. I donate and write checks to the homeless voice all of the time. at times i have felt bad leaving the local casino with a few hundred dollars in those mini tourneys, with those people that you know dont gamble for fun you can tell they have a problem.

This is an interesting thread. Heres one-I once cheated a bunch of drug dealers out of $50 playing poker. Now keep in mind that i wouldn't normaly cheat, as there is much more satisfaction in wining honestly, but there was no way i was watching them walk out with the money. Was this imoral? Personaly I found nothing wrong with it because i know where they got the money, selling crack. Now if they made that money honestly I wouldn't eaven consider cheating.

Yes it's immoral card
 

It's the act not the means that makes it bad. Cheating drug dealer, what has the world come to. I shake my head in disgust. And what would have happened had you been caught. Would it then have been worth it, card.

Also, where do you draw the line? What if they were strippers or Republicans or whatever other occupation you (or whoever) might not approve of.

You know what they say: Two wrongs don't make a right.

Of course, three lefts do.

Raise hand if anyone else did three lefts in their head.

I hate you sometimes, TP!

A Utilitarian would say that taking money out of the drug dealers hands is ultimately a better good for society. So, the ends would justify the means of cheating to take the money from them.

That being said, I doubt you took the money to a local children's charity and donated it all.

And Kant would say that you were a jerk and your view of immortality is skewed beyond reproach concerning what is right and wrong. The results do not validate the action.

*shrug*
----------

Definitely an interesting thread though.

:D :D :D

Freaking smart people. I tells ya!

(It's been way too long since I've been in school and actually used my brain)

Good post.

I had my second ethics test Thursday =)

I have to write a paper at the moment comparing utilitarianism to kant's view's on ethics. What a small freakin world.

I work at a gas station. The big seller for merchandise is....that's right.

Cigarettes.

Somehow I'm not losing sleep over the poker issue.

I've had enough bad beats laid on me by these idiot gamblers to keep any thoughts of pity or morality at bay.

Ah, what am I talking about, the concept of morality was completely drained out of me in law school. :D

To be honest, there have been times that I've thought about this issue. But those times have been at the live poker games I play with friends. One example: There is a friend I've had for a while that is simply horrible at poker. He plays only the nuts and is readable to the nth degree. I've stolen pots from him when I know I can, and I've laid down hands when I know I'm beat. The other night, I felt so bad about taking more of his money, I just checked down a hand where I knew I had him.

On the other hand, online games are played with a bunch of strangers who I can't even see face to face. And frankly, many of them are jackholes in chat, so busting them is actually quite pleasing.

My overall philosophy has evolved recently. I guess I'm getting old and cranky, but I'm flat out tired of constantly paying the price for other people being stupid. In every day walks of life, I'm constantly forced to do extra work to account for other people's inability to do things right. And I'm so tired of it.

In poker, in the long run, the stupid people will pay the price for being stupid. And I like that. Granted, it's a long-term process, but Darwinism at the poker table will win out. So if you're just dumb as rocks and decide that you're going to play poker, well then, there is simply no room for me to pity you.

This made me shed a tear.... it's just so.... beautiful.

My #1 pet peeve in life (in case anyone couldn't tell): Stupid people.

My dad taught me something the day I turned 18: When meeting someone for the first time, always assume they are an idiot. 9 times out of 10, you wont be disappointed.

A note on my last post here- This happen a long time ago, in my reckless years. I've since smartend up and don't even asociate with these people anymore, so please don't judge me on this. What if I had got caught? Then I would have been the second person to get my ass kicked that night, but im skilled enough not to get caught. And no, I did not donate it all to a local charity. I droped $5 of it in a childrens camp collection jar at Tim Hortons thogh :)

Also. I"d like to clear up the fact that I am not a cheater. I used to do alot of card tricks and the ability to cheat just kinda came along with that.

Thanks everyone for contributing to this thread. It has given me lots to think about. With the move, the new house (first time home owners!), the new job, family, the World Cup, and finding a good soccer league in Milwaukee, I am definitely taking a break from playing online for a couple of months. I suspect when/if I come back my game be stronger than ever. And the break means I got more time for TP.com. :D

PS-Despite all my liberal, touchy-feely “lets make the world a better place” tendencies, count me among those that hate stupid people. Maybe just our definitions of stupid are somewhat different.

It is somewhat..
 

I think anyone who has played poker for a while has to ask themselves these questions. Night after night your winning money so someone is losing it. A percentage of those who are losing have alot of disposable income so it does not effect them. I think a smaller percentage have no self control and lose money they can not afford to lose. The question is should you care that you are taking money from this second group of people. It is hard to answer. I guess you should care but ultimately we are responsible for our decisions in life. I have made many bad decisions and paid for them, and many good ones that have helped me out. So while I hope people with gambling problems would get help I do not feel it is my responsability to make them get help by leaving the game or anything of that sort.

I have seen alot of degenerate gamblers, mostly at the blackjack tables, and nothing is going to stop them. I once was siting at Foxwoods and a guy came in dressed in McDonalds type garb and dropped several bills in fifteen minutes and left. I am pretty sure it was his weeks pay. While I hope he gets some help I would not boycott Foxwoods because of it.

If you are concerned about the morality of the game obviously you can quit. I know alot of REALLY good poker players who have gone pro and have had fights with the nagging though: Does Poker contribute anything to society, and am I anything but a leech. Everyone works out these questions there own way.

Don't get me started about this we'll be talking about smoking again ?
I got so much neg feed back on the last morality thread i'd have to blow half the forum just to get back in the green again

I still love ya man
 

I respect you to the utmost Mel - you just get a little too deep for me sometimes with you impathy for all mankind. Peace

PS "I'm a Hustler Baby!"

Poker's new image
 

Once in the not so distant past, poker was consider a bad thing. A sin to some. Now with all the media coverage professional poker players can finally raise their eyes up to meet their neighbors' and say with pride what they do for a living. And now ironically those peers are envious of the pros who no longer have that negative stigma about them. The dregs of society have now become our champions of nightly TV entertainment.

And my last point is a serious one.
I view taking the degenerate gamblers money in a different light than most of you do.
I am helping them by taking their money.
When does an alcoholic or any addict for that matter get help?
When they hit rock bottom, that's when.
I am these sad addicts 12 step program.
I'm doing it for them Mel.

So I ask everyone to heed my words and help these poor gamblers' souls. Take there money today.

I shall now pass around the collection plate. Give what you can. We like the kind that jingles but we prefer the kind that folds. ;)

A great man once said "Suckers have no buisness with money, anyway"

I know you've been waiting for me to post in this thread. I am, after all, the "moral barometer" for the forum. One word folks, one word:

GIMME

BTW... Yes, this thread counts ()... just barely!
04-01-06, 04:19 PM

And yes, this post counts for it's total. :D

I have been giving a lot of thought to my feelings about the morality of poker, as well as posting like a fiend around here, while I take some time away from playing. It is a tough nut for me to crack. The whole free-will thing suggests that we are all responsible for our own actions and the consequences of these actions. I definitively believe in this philosophy, especially as I apply it to myself. Generally, I try to be more generous with others than I am with myself, so I don’t feel comfortable with a “fuck’em” attitude towards others. In the end, I cannot come to a satisfactory conclusion to the question of the morality of poker. And I am totally cool with that. That is one of the joys of human nature, exploiting the gray areas. Other than boozing more than I should, I don’t have a lot of vices. I am ok with poker being a vice for me (if it is actually is a vice). I really appreciate the thoughts that you all posted on this topic.

I think the core of this issue has been my approach to poker. Is it just for fun? Or should I manage it as an investment of time and money? Should I treat it like a second job, an income source? Or is it just something that I enjoy and I happen to make some money at it? Should I be pulling out my profits or building a bankroll and playing more serious? I vacillate through all these questions and it really messes with my head as I try to justify the time I put into poker. During this time away for reflection I have come to a satisfactory answer to these questions. I am going to treat poker like an investment, and I am going to try and increase my bankroll to move up. My plan that at the end of each month I will pull out 50% of my profits for that month. Theoretically my bankroll should grow, satisfying some ambition, and I should get consistent reward for the investment of time and energy. The fact that I enjoy the hell out of playing is just a bonus.