Poker is sex
 

PokerStars Game #8106517291: Tournament #41088902, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level V (75/150) - 2007/01/24 - 21:27:23 (ET)
Table '41088902 193' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 5: gipsdad (1910 in chips)
Seat 6: TP_Longshot (4090 in chips)
gipsdad: posts small blind 75
TP_Longshot: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TP_Longshot [Qs Qh]
gipsdad: raises 150 to 300
TP_Longshot: raises 450 to 750
gipsdad: calls 450
*** FLOP *** [9d Ah Ad]
TP_Longshot: bets 1160
gipsdad: calls 1160 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [9d Ah Ad] [Kh]
*** RIVER *** [9d Ah Ad Kh] [7s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TP_Longshot: shows [Qs Qh] (two pair, Aces and Queens)
gipsdad: shows [Jc Ks] (two pair, Aces and Kings)
gipsdad collected 3820 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3820 | Rake 0
Board [9d Ah Ad Kh 7s]
Seat 5: gipsdad (button) (small blind) showed [Jc Ks] and won (3820) with two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 6: TP_Longshot (big blind) showed [Qs Qh] and lost with two pair, Aces and Queens


I dont know what to say. This is how im runnning, everytime im playing good poker.....this is what happens

Umm, yeah.

I really dont know why you have a personal vendetta against me. Every time I post about playing well you are just an ass. I managed to come back from 800 chips early in this thing after making a tough laydown with bottom set. Until you actually WATCH me play, I would appreciate it if you could keep your comments to yourself. You are basing my play off a few hands you have seen me post. You wanna tell me what I did wrong with this hand Mr. High Stakes?

Reraise more. From now on, reraise a person's bet to 3x-4x his initial bet (so if 300, reraise to 900-1200). If that bet is more than 1/2 your stack, push all-in.

With your tiny reraise, you price him in to suck out on you if he has one overcard.

gipsdad: raises 150 to 300
TP_Longshot: raises 450 to 750
gipsdad: calls 450


thats exactly what i did, his initial bet was 150, not 300.

Stupid wording by me. So, if he raises to "x" reraise to "x*3-4".

Okay, but that is pricing him out....dont i really want a call in this situation? my hand isnt really that vunerable

You want your opponents to make a mistake against you. So, if you reraise an amount that it would make it incorrect for him to play against you, you profit. Yes, you still profit if you make this small reraise since you are "pricing him in", but you are not letting him make a mistake against you. You are letting him play correctly against you, and you are basically waiting for the random number generator to figure out the winner in this battle because you are both playing correctly preflop.

Also, as you move up in limits, people will start to notice that you are only doing this when you have a monster holding, and people will adjust to this.

Yes you need to learn to stop min raising / making raise that dont induce folds, but in this case I dont think it matters, since opponent is intent on calling the last 1160 with no pair no draw

I was thinking this exact same thing.
Re-raise to 900 at least

Poker is Sex...

You just don't get it!

Lame

As soon as you stop posting hands like this while telling us that we don't know how good you really are, is when I'll stop being an ass.

I have been doing terrible the last year or so - so take this question for what its worth. But, he did manage to get him to call 1160 chips to win a pot the size of 2660 drawing to three outs. That sounds like he got him to make a mistake after the flop, no?

Maybe he was 'right' in calling the re-raise (calling 450 to a 1050 pot with a hand that could be in a lot of trouble), but it seems to me that Longshot got him to make an error after the flop. Would the villian have made that call after the flop had he seen Longshots cards? For that matter, would he have made the call preflop had he seen his cards? I would think the answer would be 'no' to both questions.

Am I missing something here? I have to assume i am based on how i have run the last 9-10 months. In theory, if i was Longshot - i would have loved how this hand progressed (up til the K hit of course :-)

bdawg... the mistake that was pointed out was his preflop re-raise, not his post flop play which was fine.

Also, we're seeing a pattern here where he seems to want to draw in someone and does so with a min-raise and then he's stunned with disbelieve each time the guy he wanted to bring along (who was correct to come along b/c the min-raise gave him the right odds to do so) draws out on him. The other pattern we're seeing is he doesn't seem to like, appreciate or take in the advice being given on this subject w/o getting overly sensitive and offended because, apparently, we just don't understand how good he actually is.

This hits it on the head. I won't restate the advice already given in this thread (all good), but I will add that folding bottom set may not have been quite as good a laydown as you think it was. It's impossible to say without more info (was the board KhQhJhTx8x and you had 88?), but more often than not, folding a set isn't a "great play."

gotcha
 

Okay, i get what you are saying now. I guess its a case of 'be careful of what you wish for' when you lure/price someone in with that kind of raise prelfop.

The thing i dont understand. I got him to make a mistake twice right? He called with the worst hand preflop....that doesnt bother me, my opponents can call all day with KJ when i have QQ....why should i mind? Not only did i get him to make this "mistake" but i got him to commit his last chips with K high. I just dont see why you wouldnt want your opponent to call with KJ preflop when you have QQ....are you really scared you are going to be outflopped that often?

This is similar to how you used to (I hope you don't do it any more) always min reraise with AA preflop. You'd price your opponent in to call and think that you were correct because you were getting THAT money in as a favorite - when really, you didn't make him make a mistake.... and then he'd suck out and you'd give him the rest of your chips (giving him loads of implied odds), etc. IMO, it was also obvious what you had (to someone paying attention), since you'd only make this weak 3 or 4 bet with AA and KK...

Make your opponent make mistakes.

No, his first call of your RR wasn't a mistake.

No, but it sure seems to be bothering you, otherwise why post this? In all honesty, this beat is very standard.

3 outers are standard? mmk

You're missing the math. Let's look at a simple example, and see if it helps:

Blinds are 10/20. You each have 1000 stacks. You have AA, which we all agree is the best hand.

Opponent min raises to 40. You min reraise to 60. Opponent calls.

Now stop. You just got him to put in an extra 20 chips with a hand worse than yours. So by your logic, he made a mistake, right? Wrong! YOU just made the mistake. And here's why:

Before you reraised, there was already 60 in the pot. Your raise made it 100 and you were asking opponent to call only 20 more chips. you were giving him 5:1 odds! Opponent is correct to call for this price with any two cards (and with most hands, even if he knew you had AA!), and that's not even factoring in the implied odds of when he flops a set on you and you give him the rest of your chips with your overpair, etc. Get it?

In your example, yeah, he got really lucky when he put all his chips in with QQ, but on't say you played it beautifully, because you didn't. You made a mistake preflop. You gave him a nice price to see a flop with KJ. With the range of hands he should have put you on, he's correct to call there, even though he ended up only having one overcard.

Also, and this is something that no one has mentioned yet.... Let's say opponent turned over A2 (and he certainly could have had an Ace). Would you still think that you played it correctly? Would you have posted this hand and would you still like your flop play? Somehow, I doubt it.

I give up.

I don't know what mmk means, but yes, 3 outers are standard. From the flop, he's got about a 12% chance to win, and he's way less of a dog preflop (I know you still would havecalled it a 3 outer if the money went in there). Get in this situation 100 times and you're going to lose about 12 of them. You're supposed to.

And like I said, if he had turned over A2 here (or A9 which has you drawing to running queens), I wonder what your take on the hand would be then.

He doesn't get it. In my experience, a lot of new poker players think that the best hand is supposed to win 100% of the time, even thought it's very rarely a 100% favorite. Like, when they get all in preflop with AA vs xx, they think they are supposed to win 100% of the time, and when they lose once in a while, they forget about ll the times they won in that spot and start babbling about poker being rigged.

This is why Penguinfan left us, because he couldn't get this through his head and refused to try to learn. (starting at Post #6), which gives a great example of what we are talking about here.

I guess I have trouble understanding how people don't understand math. The best hand isn't always supposed to win!!!

I never said the best hand was supposed to win every time....i know suckouts happen....but i say this is how im running....which i am.....while playing good poker....which i am.....Its a bad beat....thats why its here

*slaps forehead*

Always is a bit of a strong word. I would do this sometimes. And I didnt just do it with AA. I have read in more than one source of professionals using min-raises in their tourney play. Gavin Smith and Lee Nelson (won the 2006 Aussie tourney) off the top of my head.

Yes. You are the best.

*Gives up*

They may be a correct situation deep in a tourney with short stacks for min-REraising (are you sure that's what they are doing, and not just opening for a minimum raise?), but I am sure it's the exception and not the rule.

I wish you had posted this yesterday, I saw Gavin Smith at the Borgata last night and would have asked him about it.

You read good....i dont see the word best in there at all..

I actually posted his article (gavin's) about it. They talk about opening with it. I could probably dig it out.

I think part of my problem experimenting with that is maybe i am not a good post-flop player. That plays into it too (being able to get off a hand - being able to buy the pot after the flop if you miss, etc).

Negreanu does this too, so you're talking about two of the best post-flop players on the planet. If you can play like they can post flop... min-raise till your fingers bleed.

here is the thread...
 

here is the actual 'tip' from gavin smith at fulltilt archives:



here is the TP thread where i posted it for discussion:



LOL at the line you have about gavin passing out during that $30 SitNGo we played with him. Good times....good times....

Going from playing with Gavin Smith in the Bahamas to messing around with $25 PLO at UB. How times have changed.

he did not make a mistake preflop. HU and the pot is offering him 2.33:1 he is easily a money favorite vs your range.

Its even borderline to say he made a FTOP error preflop. He was a 2.44:1 dog vs the precise hand you held. There is way more than an additional 4.6% equity in implied odds there.

Don't bother Kurn.

You were at the Borgota last night??

There is a huge, huge, HUGE difference between opening (the first raise) for 2.5x the BB and MIN REraising (three betting by reraising exactly what your opponent raised) for the second raise.... The first has it merits - ie, Gavin's article on Small Pot poker. The second, IMO, is nothing more than asking for trouble. I really think it should be done never, even if you are the best pot flop player in the world.

Seriously... you might as well be writing in Latin. He doesn't get the most basic of principles, so no way is he going to get the numbers or understand "ranges" and "implied odds" and such. Let it go.

He's not the best, mind you, but he's really good. Very little room for improvement there... :rolleyes:

Wow, you guys really dont want to let anything go. I understand a lot more about the game of poker than people give me credit for. But ive said that and it doesnt matter....im obviously going to have to play 2/4 before i can even have a shot at being considered good

Yeah... not for poker though (but I definitely had the itch). My buddy is getting married on Saturday, so I flew up to PA and we went out for a bachelor night last night.... He doesn't play poker, but he likes to gamble, so we played about 10 hours worth of table games (Pai Gow, BJ, Let It Ride, the "Texas Hold Em" table game, roulette, slots, etc). Earned enough comp dollars for a few meals and won a little coin in the process too. It was a fun night. I love that casino too. Top notch.

If the wedding wasn't Saturday, I would have played in a satellite to the Winter Open for sure. I LOVE the tourney structure they have at the Borgata for the big events...

Your roll and the limits you play have nothing to do with people's opinion of your game. The hands you post have a LITTLE to do with it. It's your failure to understand when we explain the errors you are making and your insistence that you are "playing good" when you clearly are not that makes us think what we do.

Did you read that link to the post I made way back when? If not, you should. It explains exactly why you think you're better than we think you are. Basically, it boils down to you not knowing any better.

I just think it's a shame you aren't willing to accept that and to try to learn, so you can improve.

Its a shame that you dont think im trying to learn. I know this may be a stretch, but i would be willing to bet i have read more on poker than anyone on the forum, but thats just what i feel. This is one situation that if you had seen ALL of my recent play you will realize i have corrected....i still dont like raising so much in this particular spot

*yawn*

Wow. What's the point of caring what people think about "how good you are?" Who cares what "pshabi" or "reeldeal" think about your "game." LOL. Seriously, let results show. Play in league events and win. Beat up on more players HU, as you did with Boobie. (LUCK!) LOL.

You're making yourself look like a whiny little bitch, brutha.

I miss Brian :(

Ok. If you want to learn, stop arguing with them and go back and read my explanation of why your opponent did not make a mistake. If you have questions about the reasoning in my post, I'd be happy to chunk the math a lttle more.

I can admit I'm that way, and I'm still a fairly new poker player to online and cash games (besides home games of course).

I think that just about sums it up. You can't win everytime with AA,KK,QQ,etc. Even though you'd love too. Play the hand correctly, and you should be up in the LONG run (not short term)

:cool:

Until a couple of days ago, I was DOWN for the month with AA, despite being nicely up overall. I'm up a whopping 1.38 BB/hand with it now, which is just ridiculous. For comparison sake, I'm up about 5 BB/hand with KK and QQ.

But it's just variance. It happens. I'm still down with AKo, but I usually am. :o

Lou's back with a muthafuckin' vengence this week.

Gangster.