Opinions on a live ruling/situation (EPT Barcelona)
 

What do you all think of the ruling/situation discussed in article?

Roland is an idiot and this respect the game angle is bullshit. Its not like the other guy misrepresented his hand. Respect the game by not being a dumbass. When you get to showdown why would you ever muck your hand before you knew what your opponent had? To me that alone makes me think Roland deserves to lose the pot no matter what the actual correct ruling should be. I also think bunting when the guy has a no hitter going is fine as well.

Roland made a very dumb mistake. He got called and had to show.

IF he had just shown it as normal, that would be the best hand unless someone could show something better. Instead he flashes and mucks.

Mucking before he saw what the other guy had was unfortunate error, but he did it. Tough luck Roland.

I read the last few paragraphs of that article a few times to make sure I understood correctly.

Guy #1 gets called by Guy #2. Guy #1 proceeds to be a little bitch and play that "you show first" game even though, by rule, he must show his cards. Guy #1 shows one card and then mucks because he figures that he lost. Guy #2 sees that Guy #1 mucked his hand and shows his cards (which are worse). Guy #1 freaks and grabs his cards after he mucked them to show both cards and try to win the hand.

The author then rails on Guy #2 for being disingenuous and trying to subvert the rules. Seriously?

If you are called by an opponent, show your hand. Don't sit there and waste time. I have had people do that in games against me and it is, by far, the number one thing I hate most at the poker table. You were called, show your hand. I didn't call you to have you muck and let me win anyway. And, to win, show both cards.

If I called my opponent and he showed one card while he mucked his hand...I damn well would expect to win that hand. The other guy mucked.

qft.

He's a pro!
 

Roland, who as a professional poker player, made a very foolish mistake. As for any questions of ethics, I don't see how that applies here. In fact, from the write-up De Wolfe specifically told him to show his hand, but instead Roland folded.

What more do you want De Wolfe to do?

There's a bet and a call with all the action complete - show your hand or muck. This "you show first" crap is silly and a waste of time - the clock is ticking while that's going on, and if I'm at the table (in a tournament more than cash game) I'm pissed at these morons.

Also, if you muck your hand you're done and should be done - no one should allow you to pull your cards out of the muck, even if it seems they're clearly identifiable - mucked is mucked.

Lets see table his hand or maybe just maybe wait to muck till he sees his opponents cards or his opponent mucks?

pokernews showing once again it is where hack writers thrive.

Yet another case of stupid tournament rules creating the problem. In a cash game, when Roland mucks, the other guy is under no obligation to show his cards. No reason to change the rules just because its a tournament. Dealers and floor people should be schooled enough to judge whether or not its chip dumping if, and only if, a third player complains.

This is a clear as day pot to the Q6. Had the Kx tabled both cards then cards speak, but he didn't and thus his hand is a muck. I dunno how anyone can think of it any other way. The only exception is if the Q6 player requested to see the other hand, in which case it is live once turned over.

the authors claim that this is an angleshoot is fuckin ridiculous. He should let the best hand have the pot?? WHAT? So is it also unethical to bluff? Or unethical to shove a AKQJT board with no suits and when the guy says damn I flopped a set nice hand and flashes KK at you and the folds for you not to say, HEY WAIT A MINUTE u have a straight not a set. Or if an opponent misreads his hands and folds? come on man thats a joke

OSU/Michigan 1968. Ohio State won 50–14, including a 29-0 2nd half score. On their last touchdown they attempted a two-point conversion When asked why he went for two points with an already insurmountable 50–14 lead, Woody Hayes said, "Because I couldn't go for three."

roland's a wanker

FYI this is not true all the time. In a lot of casinos (Borgata for one) you are required to show both cards in order to be awarded the pot if he bets the river and you call (or if the hand gets to showdown another way), even if your opponent has mucked instead of turning up his hand.

Video of incident....... LOL @ the language

Wow.... now that i see the video I dunno if thats a muck or not.... he pushed his cards forward but the dealer grabbed them, almost stopping them from going into the muck and tabled them for him.....now obv a dealer shouldnt table your cards but i dunno if that changes anything....

While I agree that Roland was stupid to try to muck his hand and should have lost because of it, I am still :eek: that the other guy CALLED a bet with Q high and then completely angleshooted Roland into mucking after seeing that he had the winning hand. He even triumphantly pounds the table after tabling his Q high, insisting that Roland's hand was dead.

Watch the video. It's pretty messed up. I mean, the dealer even technically stops Roland from mucking, but his cards did just barely touch the burn cards.

I dunno... because of what the dealer did (which was inappropriate, but that is another discussion), I think I would have declared Roland's hand live and awarded him the pot.

But seriously, how stupid is Roland for not turning over BOTH of his hole cards and only the king. WTF - Is this his first live tourney? :rolleyes:

Exactly. The dealer was out of line, but IMO, he stopped the mucking and tabled the cards.

BTW - I wonder WTF Tobias is saying during his interview.

Yeah wtf is Roland doing? I mean you can tell the guy doesn't want to show his hand. The other guy obviously is a prick and angleshooter.

I think the ruling was fair. Like there's absolutely no reason for Roland not to table his hand. Everyone's been caught bluffing before...so it's not like OMG so embarassing type moment. Once Roland places his hand into the muck...the hand is dead and the pot should be rewarded to the other player.

I really don't think you can call the other player out for angleshooting. I believe on 2+2, the player wrote, that he has seen Roland quickly muck when caught bluffing before. It's totally in his right to just wait for Roland to show his hand. It might be bad etiquette if he had the nuts and I wouldn't ever recommend doing that, but to ask Roland to show his hand first is totally within the rules.

It was stupid for him to show his hand. Like there was a risk of losing a pot that was his, and no risk of losing it if he just mucked.

Thanks for posting the video Spuddy. Now that I've seen the actual action I think the correct ruling was made. As soon as De Wolfe slid his hand to the point where it touches the muck, that's it, his hand is mucked and what the dealer did thereafter is really irrelevant. Having said that, I do think the other guy is a douche... shit, they're both douches.

did the guy that won Have to show his hand?

One thing I noticed in this video is that the table has the line around it - assuming that, like most, this is the betting line. Does the same rule apply to cards as well? If cards cross it they are considered dead?

Wow
 

Video adds a lot. And I award ... Kicks in the nuts all the way around! In an extraordinary set of circumstances, both players AND the dealer were in the wrong.

De Wolfe should have tabled both cards. (Obv)

Dealer should not have tried to physically prevent De Wolfe from mucking prematurely (Wtf?)

Reinkemeier (whose name I screwed up in my last post) would have been classier had he not pounded the table in victory after winning the pot with the worst hand.

I suspect pot should still go to Reinkemeier. Cards were retrievable, but it sure seemed he had surrendered the hand.

No, he did that to rub it in De Wolfe's face.

Bam! No further analysis needed. :thumbsup: