Important of tournament stack variance?

stussy2k · #1 08-02-05, 04:54 AM

I've been experimenting with levels of agressiveness in multitable tournaments, and i find that being hyper-agressive is the best way to play it. It allows me to build up a stack and gives me a table image one someone not to be messed with. But, the problem is that with this agressive play, my tournament stack varies alot more than if i were to say, play only the top 10. Do any of you think that stack variance is a problem, or is just getting ITM the important thing?

Zybomb · #2 08-02-05, 05:04 AM

Im going to sleep, so Ill probably comment more on this tomorrow -- but in the meantime, please define what you mean by hyperaggressive. Do you mean trying to steal several pots once youve made it to the flop? Do you mean frequently defending blinds and reraising with marginal hands? Do you mean playing a large % of hands preflop , and if so by raising or by calling

etc etc

Clarify

Aequitas58 · #3 08-02-05, 05:06 AM

There are so many things here... I'm tired... I'll vomit this up real quick, and then I'm off to bed.

1. ITM is overrated. Don't play for ITM, because if you just play to get past the bubble, you're not going to make money play MTTs. Usually, unless you final table, MTTs are a waste of time. Play to go deep.

2. Obviously, if you play ultra-aggro, then you're going to experience more ups and downs. This isn't bad if your ups are better than your downs, but you have to be careful. The conservative player will be waiting to pounce on you.

3. Don't think that just playing ultra-aggro is the best way to play. It might yield immediate results, but ALWAYS keep in mind: you'll be most effective at a NLHE tournament when your playing style is opposite that of your opponents.

Harrington on Hold'Em, Vol 1, pg 19, last paragraph, and it's highlighted. (Oh wait, that's just my copy.)

stussy2k · #4 08-02-05, 05:13 AM

hyper agressive as in fair amount of blind stealing, even from mid. Fair amount of bluffs on uncordinated boards, betting fairly agressively, occasionally slowing slightly with the nuts. just lots of high pressure moves.

Talking Poker · #5 08-02-05, 12:25 PM

I don't know that I would call this Hyper Aggressive. Sounds like maybe a little bit "loose" in that you are playing more hands than the average player, but when I first read this, I thought you meant reckless.... and that's not how this sounds to me.

I think this style sounds like a decent one for MTTs, but as Aeq said, the best style is to play opposite your opponents. This may work against "average" tables, but against a table of maniacs, you're dead meat. You want to tighten way up and only push solid hands against those types of tables.

I think it's also important to vary your play (change gears) frequently throughout a tourney. This way, it's difficult for your opponents to pick up on your style and just when they think they've got a read on you, you hit them with a different style.

Zybomb · #6 08-02-05, 02:01 PM

Very true. The Hendon Mob described all the different player types (from maniac to calling station to tight aggressive etc) Then the followed that up by saying what they thought was the best type of player. This is directly quoted from their () website.

"In-between Players:

Mixer.
A tricky and intelligent player who is capable of adjusting his game according to circumstances. Most good players fall more or less into this category and if you recognise a mixer at your table pay particular attention to how you think they are categorising you. You may find opportunities to out play him which would not work against a lesser opponent. If you identify a mixer at the table, study their game. This is the kind of player you want to be.

Turncoat.
You will often see a player representing the characteristics of one type for a while and then gradually or suddenly reverting to their natural type. A loose player may attempt to play tight for a while because they know it's 'the right thing to do', because they have a false self image, because they want to impress others as being a strong player. Follow how their game changes and pick them off as they start to loosen up. Your advantage may lie in spotting the change before other do.

Alternatively a more dangerous and self aware type of Turncoat may deliberately create a table image which they aim to exploit later.
A strong-tight player or a mixer may 'advertise' early in a game betting marginal hands and showing cheap bluffs in order to create action for themselves later on."

Figure itd relate to this thread

stussy2k · #7 08-03-05, 05:49 AM

Yea, i understand that you should generally play opposite to your oppenents style. When i get moved and i see that a few of my steals are called off, i know when to put the breaks on. But the key part of my question is about stack variance. Is the up and down stack a normal occurance? Last two tournaments, i was crippled early, made it back, crippled some more, and then ran good. And i finished in the final table (2nd and 4th respectively). I was wondering if this is generally normal for tournament players.

I think that you have to play looser early in a tournament while the blinds are cheap, and then tighten up slightly(not as much as your opponents because you want to steal). I find that if you keep stealing, the people will eventually get tired of it, take a stand at the wrong place, and BAM, you take em out. Feel free to comment on other tournament strategies.

Zybomb · #8 08-03-05, 02:11 PM

Gaining a lead early in the tournament is not important, merely surviving and trying to have a playable stack of chips is.

I believe David Sklansky quoted a stat which was that the leader at the end of Day 1 of the WSOP has never made the final table

At some point in the tournament however, usually late when blinds are high, you are going to have have to take risks you wouldnt take normally. (i.e risking your stack with a low pair, hoping your a coinflip and not 4 to 1, and hoping you hold up). At some point you have to start playing for the win, and your chip stack size becomes more important than just hanging around. Because of this you may see a great variety in your stack varience

Im also kind of the opposite of how you described (loose early tight later)

Early, although I will try to see cheap flops with cards that can hit (i.e 1 gap suited connectors, Kxs in LP) I wont steal much (its not worth it) and I'll bluff at a pot once and then give it up) (again nto worth it, you dont stand to gain enougH) Look at TPs report, eventually the ANTE was equal to the starting chips. Early in the tourny I like to simply grind out smallpots when I can and only rarely make moves.

Later on I start using position steals, pushing my stack in with less than a monster etc.

stussy2k · #9 08-04-05, 01:56 AM

I think an important thing about that stat is that the end of the first day is that the blinds are so low that yoru really not even close to getting a lead. the WSOP is such a large tournament, that i don't think that tactics in the WSOP would work for other MTTs. in smaller tournaments, especially live games, i think that you MUST set an agressive stance to other players. you have to push them around so they become weak passive. Increasing the blinds is like christmas to me.

Zybomb · #10 08-04-05, 02:21 AM

But the thing to keep in mind especially early, is to not get involved in pots that are bigger than they need to be, unless u are sure you have the best of it.

Late in the tournament a simple blind and ante steal from the button can earn you more chips then doubling up in the first round, calling an all in bet Even in a normal sized MTT say you start 1500 chips, getting to 4500 first (say by going all in 2x with KK, its still a gamble) isnt going to mean too much when people are in the 150,000's once it gets down to 40 or so players. You are eventually going to be stealing 4500 chips with a button raise stealing the SB, BB and the antes.

Thats why I believe you should take much less risks early and many more later

stussy2k · #11 08-04-05, 03:42 AM

a really important thing early in the tournament is to see a lot of flops. if you keep the pots low, then there a higher chance that you'll see the flop and catch something, which is better than being reraised.

Zybomb · #12 08-04-05, 05:05 AM

With cards that can pay off, and cards that youd toss at the later stages
Like the 1 gap suited connectors (9s7s) and Kxs etc. Calling with 93o just bc blinds are low simply isnt a good idea...but you are right seeing a lot of flops (assuming you are at least a good post flop player) is very helpful in building your stack

stussy2k · #13 08-04-05, 07:46 AM

One of the biggest problems i find is that in hands where you river 2 pair,and then the villian makes a extremely large, unlogical bet, but the turn and river become cordinated (flush or straight) i think its one of the hardest decisions to make. Alot of times, desperate opponents raise for a bluff, but then when it hits, its extremely devistating.