Ethics Question

[Kurn]

Meh. No more unethical than wearing a disguise to the poker room if you feel the regulars aren't giving you enough action.

[Talking Poker]

What about sunglasses? Are those unethical? What about pretending to be drunk when you're not (I know someone who does this very effectively in live play)?

I think the point here is that poker is a game full of deception. Many forms of deceptions are generally accepted (check raising, playing with players that you know are bad, wearing sunglasses, etc) by virtually everyone. At the other extreme would be the ZeeJustin multiple accounts thing and playing more than one of them in the same tourney. I think it is ridiculous that anyone could argue this to not be unethical (Poker Stars agreed with me), but Justin and many other people actually did. I find that stunning.

I guess it comes down to each individual's personal opinion. For me, I draw the line with the rules. I'm going to use every edge that I can that that is within the rules (PT/PaHUD/etc), but I'm not going to break the rules (multiple accounts/collusion/marked cards).

So, as for the question at hand, I guess I'd like to know Star's (and other sites) official stance on the issue. I remember listening to a WCOOP broadcast way back when and Barry Greenstein talking about his "crazyplayer" account and how it's usually not him playing on it. I know of lots of other high profile accounts that are used my multiple players too. Because of this, I have to think the sites are ok with this going on, but I just don't know for sure.

[Zybomb]

It seems you agree with me for the posed question.... but Im a little confused here about this above -- so u r letting the individual poker sites determine whether or not something is ethical? If PT/PaHUD was to be deemed illegal by the poker sites tomorrow, it would suddenly go from being ethical to unethical? What if PokerStars allowed it but Full Tilt didn't?

I certaintly understand using the programs if they are legal and then not using them if they are illegal (you are following the rules) but I don't think that should have anything to do with whether or not it is ethical to use them... either you believe they are right or wrong

[Dodoubled]

You guys ever read the book "Bringing Down the House," by Ben Mezrich? It's about the MIT blackjack guys who learned to count cards and took Vegas for a couple mil. Over time, the casinos began to recognize those guys and kicked them out of the casinos. Their faces, names and aliases were eventually put in the Griffin book, which was, at the time, the guide all the casinos used to recognize cheats.

So what did these guys do? They went to smaller, off-the-beaten-path casinos and continued to play. And when they were caught there, they continued on down the track. And in essence, JD, I think this is what you're asking, in relation to online poker. In other words, when your online ID is discovered and you're revealed to be a good player, is it ethical to stop, change gears (and your screen name) to try and convince others that you're not really who you are?

Is it ethical? I don't know. I'm not sure I ever actually learned what the true meaning of "ethics" is. We had a lot of discussions in my journalism classes about what was ethical and what was not, and I never really understood the class because the answers seemed to blow in whatever direction the wind was heading (or whatever mood the prof was in that day). I also learned that what was "ethical" in my opinion wasn't always what the talking heads believed.

I think poker players of the old school consider a lot of things the young bucks do these days to be unethical (i.e. all the trash-talking, insulting, grandstanding and other B.S.), and a lot of that behavior is born online. But hell, the young guys are winning. Remember that Molina kid? I wonder if the fact that he won $330,000 at the WSOP gave him the right to embarrass his family's name on TV (which is pretty much what he did with his antics). His folks didn't seem to care, however.

I guess my definition of ethical is this: "Is it something I'd be willing to do, and more importantly, is it something I'd want to have done to me?"

If I were playing someone online and he took me for a couple grand, and later on I found out I had really played a pro, I'd be a little mad, sure. But then I'd realize that the whole idea in this game is to make money, and in the end, that's all he was -- some guy just trying to make a buck, using every legal advantage he can -- just like those MIT guys.

Isn't that what this game's all about, anyway?

[Zybomb]

Good post Double....

Is it also unethical to count cards because i takes away the house advantage and gives you won? Please

[Talking Poker]

Well, I generally consider myself to be a fairly moral person (I say "fairly," because I knowingly do my share of thing that are wrong by the letter of the law), so I guess I feel that using them - when they are allowed - is ethical, yes. If they were not allowed on a given site, I would stop using them on that site. Would I suddenly feel that they are unethical just because they are no longer allowed? Well, no, because I'd still use them on the other sites that allow them - but yes, I think using them on a site that forbids them is unethical, yes.

I'm not sure if that answers your question.

So back to the original question: Yeah, I guess I think it's unethical to play under someone else's account, and I have never done that myself (other than the time I sat in a tourney for JD for like 45 minutes). But would I fault anyone for doing it if it's not against the rules? Absolutely not.

And don't think I'm Mr. Super Straight Laced By the Book Guy either.... I mean, is downloading copyrighted episodes of High Stakes Poker from the internet because your stupid cable company doesn't get GSN unethical? I suppose so, yes. But do I do every week anyway?