AA or KK very early in a multi

Penguinfan · #1 10-14-04, 05:21 PM

Do you go all-in pre-flop or slow play them. I almost always push all-in especially if it was raised before me simply because there are a ton of bad players in these games and someone is gonna call you, now I know AA is not invinceable, but I'll take my chances. I was called by 4 people on the second hand of a tourney once with AA and it held up, believe it or not after checking the lobby board I was still not the leader

Thoughts?

Penguinfan

Aequitas58 · #2 10-14-04, 06:39 PM

The question is not whether you go ALL IN with AA or KK pre-flop in a tourney. If you are doing this, then you are not making as much money as you can. The power of AA and KK is such that you are already a big favorite to win the hand. Granted, these power hands (specifically, AA and KK) CAN be beaten, so you shouldn't play a family pot w/ AA! The main goal is isolating 1-3 players where you have a clear advantage. [Not counting what the flop brings.] This shifts the implied odds of already winning the hand in your favor. Going all in is silly, IMO, because in most situations, you'll only pick up the blinds.

So how to play AA and KK? Depends on position and chip count, in my opinion. Maybe a raise 4-6x BB? Maybe an all-in raise if you have a low amount of chips.

I pose another question: Say you have KK on the button, first hand of the tournament. UTG raises all-in, and there is one caller before you. What do you do? [I know what I do, because I know how I play, but I'm just wondering...]

Hope this helps somewhat.

2Tone · #3 10-14-04, 08:12 PM

The early rounds of a typical $5+1 Party SNG are just so crazy that you are likely to get a couple of callers and can triple up. Naturally, the higher the buy-in, the less wild play, so I'd play them differently at a $30+3.

Talking Poker · #4 10-15-04, 12:18 AM

All in or just call? Neither.

I almost always play AA and KK for a standard raise. If I get reraised, then I have a decision to make - and more often than not, that's when I push in.

Aequitas58 · #5 10-15-04, 01:02 AM

Yes. The 5+1 games almost resemble the Free 10+1 tournaments! For my money, I'd rather play the 10 or 20s; the action is still good, and you can make more money.

Aequitas58 · #6 10-15-04, 01:03 AM

Exactly. Pushing all in would realistically scare off money you could win.

Penguinfan · #7 10-15-04, 01:17 PM

Good answers, my point was just that it seems you can get callers by people holding as little as Axs and bouble/triple up quickly. Later in the game I always play them for a standard raise and then if re-raised I push em all-in. The reason I asked was because the other day I got AA first hand and got called by A9s and KQo and tripled plus some on the first hand and was curious if anyone else sees this happen.

Aequitas58 · #8 10-15-04, 04:00 PM

Well it's always great to double or triple up in the beginning, but I feel like the odds of that happening in the long run are small. I'd rather try to milk the other callers for all their worth.

All in bet might scare away my action.

DMAUL · #9 10-15-04, 04:28 PM

I don't think an all-in is smart at all, unless theres someone on the table you know will call. even then its risky despite having the best odds.

johnbaker · #10 10-18-04, 11:38 PM

going all in with AA in early position is never a good play. You dont want too many callers, but you do want SOME action. If you are at a table that you know will be very reckless, just call the big blind in early position so that someone will raise, and you can reraise them. If you are in middle position, raise to about 5x the big blind (if someone already raised, reraise them 2x their bet). If you are in late position, raise 5x the big blind (if someone has already raised and gotten more than 3 callers when you are in late position, reraise for at least 3x the current bet).

Even in a family all in pot, you should go all in with pocket aces because your 33% chances of winning the pot is way more than anyone else's. Once you factor in the pot odds, you are getting 9 to 1 on your money when you have a 33% chance of winning.... winning a pot like this is worth going in with only 33% chance of winning, especially in tournaments, because you will be put in a position to win the rest of the tourney if you win this hand. If you fold because 33% is not a high enough percent for you to get 9 to 1 on your money, you have no business playing poker.

-JB

stussy2k · #11 10-19-04, 09:17 PM

i find that with pocket aces, what you want is raises in as many positions before you as possible, then push in all the chips. I feel that with pocket aces, you DO NOT want to be called. You don't want some shmuck to get lucky on you, so all in is the way to go.

Jackass_man · #12 10-19-04, 10:59 PM

If I have AA and I made a big raise preflop I definately want a caller preferably with Ax because then I'm a huge favorite to win, hell every other pocket pair is a 4 to 1 underdog. The this you don't want to do is let people in cheap to beat you with J9o or whatever . The only time you might want to just call is if there is only a single raiser and everyone has folded to you and you are confident that you'll be heads up, then I would probably smooth call and try to trap someone with AJ and a board of J93. Another play people seem to love to do is to check the flop if they hit a set this is a good move if there isn;t two suited on the board(if there is I'd be wary of letting someone draw a flush for cheap the same goes for higher connectors). If you're worried that you;ll be outdrawn with AA definitely push it all in. No one will every critisize your play for doing it!

brokeagain · #13 10-25-04, 03:32 PM

I generally like to see a flop before I commit all of my chips, although some situations warrant you to put all your chips in. Is that situation early in a multi where blinds are 15/30, someone has raised to 300, and there is two callers before it gets to you??? Tough decision, is the hand worth all of your chips before the flop? Yes, but is it still worth all of your chips before the flop when 5 players see the flop? Hmmmm....wheres Yoon when you need 'her'?

GeoffM · #14 10-25-04, 03:48 PM

If I am sitting on AA and someone in front of me puts in a decent size raise, my chips are going in the pot. You have the best hand and what better of a situation could you ask for. I would do this in any position, because you have to figure the worst you could be up against is a pair, or maybe get 2 callers and be up against 2 pairs. If this happens, you have to figure there is only 4 outs that you lose to, so it is like those 2 pairs against you are drawing to an inside straight. I have won countless tournaments online being called by KK and QQ on the same hand and the board not helping noone.

brokeagain · #15 10-25-04, 04:36 PM

Sure, it is easy when no one has entered the pot and the player to your right opens big, but what do you do when blinds are 15/30, A opens for 300, and B and C call before it gets to you and you have T800 and two of the players have you covered? Do you want to risk all of your chips this early knowing that if you pop all in you may get at least 2 callers? I think I like to see the flop in that spot and pop it if I get the chance. Getting all my chips in with 4-5 players seeing the flop leaves me helpless, I don't like this situation at all. I need all my chip in with AA in a HU pot. Multi Pots=AA death.

GeoffM · #16 10-25-04, 04:42 PM

Absolutely, if I'm low on chips, the more, the merrier. How often do you get a chance to triple or quadruple up with AA in your hand. Hit that third A and your good, or if the board is pure rags, again you are usually ok, especially with a lot of callers when you go all-in. If you can't play your AA with X number of callers, what can you play? You will have to assume that many of the big cards the other players are holding are in each others hands, so their number of outs is reduced.

bothecorgi · #17 10-25-04, 07:08 PM

I think its best to get your chips in heads up or with only 2 other callers if you have AA. Obviously, the odds of AA holding up go down as more people are in the pot so I think it is not a good idea to let too many people see the flop.

ChipFish · #18 10-25-04, 07:24 PM

Hypothetical situation for you all:

World Series of Poker 2005.
First Hand:
Player ahead of you goes all-in
You look down to see you have A-A.
Do you call?

I say no.
I'll tell you why after I get 3 responses.

BlibbityBlabbity · #19 10-25-04, 07:34 PM

Only if it was Phil Helmuth who went all in. What fun it would be to see him cry, first out of the tourney

ChipFish · #20 10-25-04, 07:35 PM

LMAO!

OK Part marks for that one. But still wrong in my opinion.

eddo31 · #21 10-25-04, 10:24 PM

yes, you push it in on the firsthand of the tourney with AA if someone already went all in in front of you.

if this isnt your automatic response, i dont think that you belong in the tourney. the worst situation for you could be that the person in front of you has a hand like T9s. in that case you are still better than 3-1 to win the hand (according to twodimes.net). but more likely, you are up against KK, QQ. in this case you are 4-1 to win. in my opinion, you have to take risks like that in a tourney in order to move on.

also, by going all in here, you are probably shutting down the action, and it will be heads up. very unlikely that anyone else enters the pot behind you, and that is also in your favor. playingthe pot heads up is much better than playing a family pot.

ChipFish · #22 10-25-04, 10:26 PM

also a good answer but in my opinion wrong also.
One more, and I'll give you my reasoning.

Tuff Luck · #23 10-25-04, 10:33 PM

uhm.. part of me wants to call there and have the chance of doubling up but then again, that's $10,000 down if he gets the miracle cards.

I'd say yes though.

There's your three.

BlibbityBlabbity · #24 10-25-04, 10:35 PM

My real response is that I would probably do what almost everyone will tell you here and push in my chips with the best hand.

But I see the other side where playing survival poker (tournament) for a $10 million payday, do you want to risk even a 4 to 1 on the first hand. If you are a solid player with a shot to go all the way to final table, you know you will be able to take advantage of weaker players in situations where you have seen a flop and have a better idea if you hand will hold up if it goes to the river. Depends on your personality which way you go here.

ChipFish · #25 10-25-04, 10:46 PM

I agree with this one....
We can all agree that you can get sucked out on right?
Well If I told you that I was going to give you A-A and I would take 2-7o/s or any other hand that you would like me to have, and if I win you give me
$10,000. If you win, you have to beat 2500 other guys to the final table.
You really don't get much if you win here do you?
IF you lose, you're out $10K.
If you win, you're really not up that much in the grand scheme of things.
Let's say you win. Fine, now you have $20,075 or whatever the blinds are to start. Give the rest of the field 4-5 hands and there are guys ahead of you.
Why risk it?
Yes I beleive I am good enough to build a stack without an all-in gamble like that.
And yes I understand that you have to make lots of all-in gambles to place in this tournament.... However, that being said.... do it when there are more chips on the line.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong... In fact statistically speaking I should push-in.... I just feel it's not worth it.

If this was a S&G... Then I wouldn't hesitate. Same for a ring-game. and same for a small-buy-in multi table.
Just not for a large buy-in multi-table. I want to play in the WSOP, I don't want to watch it.

My two cents.
James