For the sports bettors

[omahilo]

I agree with you that he wasnt one of the greatest hitters ever and that he wasnt the best player on his own team but I still respect him as a player.

He won 3 gold gloves (I believe) and also has played 6 or 7 different positions throughout his career... He moved from 2B to 3B to make way for Joe Morgan, etc. He has done this several time and this show he is a teamer and wants to win.

He played 162 games a year just about every year of his career and having him on the field every single day also adds some value to him.

He also won 5 world series (3 with reds, 2 with phillies) and winning is what matters to me above everything else. You have tons of great players that put up tons of HRs, hit for well over .300 and dont have a WS to show for it. Im sure Tony Perez, Joe Morgan, Johnny Bench, George Foster, Ken Griffey Sr and a few others had just alittle to do with the reds success but still, he was the guy who was always on for them to drive him in.

As for todays players I agree that Eckstein is the one of the best players in the league base on hustle. He plays great defense, runs out every ground ball, rarely strikes out, comes up with clutch hits everywhere. Ryan Freel is one of my personal favorite reds because he does alot of the same stuff as Eckstein does + He can play 3-4 different positions. Last year he had the webgem of the year at 2 different positions (CF and 3B).

[eddo31]

i know that rose was a good player, and that his contributions all over the field were very valuable. i just get annoyed with the general perception of him as one of the all time greats.

like you said, you just named about five or six players on the big red machine alone who were better than him. the winner tag has some legitimacy, but again there have been better players who have never won a world series, and there have been worse that won more. by the way, the phillies only won one world series, in 1980. rose had a great nlcs, but then didnt do anything special in the series.

he was a very good player, i will absolutely admit that, and he exemplified a lot of values that resonated with the average blue-collar fan. but i just dont hold him in the same regard as many, many other players.

[Talking Poker]

My first memories of the game of baseball date back to 1980 (I was 6).... with Pete Rose and the Phillies winning the World Series.

On the field - Pete Rose was A OK in my book.

[omahilo]

ok your right on the phillies one WS... then again I wasnt much of a Phillies fan

[Penguinfan]

Here's somewhere to start, stats are nice but they are only a means to an end. First thing you can do when handicapping football either NFL or NCAA is look at what the precieved better teams strength is and how the other team stands to deal with it.

Lets start to take apart the Pittsburgh/Cincy game since it was brought up in another thread:

Cincy's strenth is obviously Carson Palmers performance and Pittsburgh CERTAINLY has problems in it's secondary giving up just over 200 yards a game to the opposing QB's while Palmer is racking up over 25 yards a game! Right here I stop and think if I don't find something very positive about Pittsburgh I may have a play on Cincy.

Pittsburgh's strengh is it's running game and ability to control the clock. Pittsburgh averages almost 120 yards a game rushing while the Cincy defense is allowing almost as many, this presents a problem. The team that runs the best usually wins a game in the NFL. With the line being a virtual pickem at -1 for Cincy this game could honestly go either way.

Does Pittsburgh get an interception to kill a drive? Does Palmer pass for 300+ yards against a horrible secondary? How healthy is Rothleisberger? Too many variables for this game.

Honestly I looked at more than this, but even if you just look at the above you know this game is not playable and move on to the next game on the board looking for a play. Lots to choose from.

That is not to say that someone doesn't have another angle and plays Pittsburgh and gets the win, I just know what works for me.

Good luck.

[omahilo]

cool man thanks... never really thought about all that.

So lets say that the steelers only avg like 60 yds on the ground and the bengals only gave up 60 yds on the ground a game, would this push you towards cincy at all?

How lopsided do stats like this have to be in order for you to give action to one side or the other?

[Penguinfan]

Yes, if I thought the Steelers had no chance to run the ball well and control the clock then I would certainly give a play on Cincy a hard look. On the flip side if I thought I could trust the Steeler secondary I would still consider them a play.

It's not so much how lopsided stats have to be, it comes down to weather or not one team will be able to impose thier game plan on the other and the second team not be able to react well to it.

You also have to look at who teams and players are putting those numbers up against. Putting up 100 yards rushing against say Carolina or Tampa is much more impressive than say Buffalo, get it?