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Old 11-10-09, 11:41 PM
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Im at a loss for words of how terrible Darwin Moon played and how lucky Cada was in all in situations
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Old 11-11-09, 12:05 AM
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I think that FT set poker back about 5 years.
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Old 11-11-09, 01:10 AM
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This would be a good thing no?
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Old 11-11-09, 08:44 AM
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Best part was when Ivey calls Cada with A8 to Cada's 77 (I think).

Shulman says "You're a sick man" (????? - Ivey was getting better than 2:1 vs a short stacked opponent pushing into another short stack)

Ivey: "How could I fold?"

Cada: "I was wondering what took you so long"

Ivey: "I was trying to find a way to fold."

This was a perfect opportunity for a commentator to point out how wrong Shulman was and how right Ivey and Cada were. No way Ivey is anywhere near a 2:1 dog to the shove range. If he wants to win the tournament , folding would be terrible.
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Old 11-11-09, 08:48 AM
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nah. Nowhere near as bad as 2007.

FWIW, Moon shows a lot of understanding of his chances. he knows he can't outplay a lot of these guys, so his best chance is to gamble.

I've always said, if I were HU vs Ivey at the end, I'd just shove every hand. That would be my best chance to win. That is unless somebody here thinks I can outplay Phil Ivey HU.
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Old 11-11-09, 09:38 AM
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Would be good, yes. Would have been better if the Frenchie won and started a poker boom in that country... those people aren't the brightest, at least as far as I've observed.
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Old 11-11-09, 09:54 AM
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I was hoping the same thing would happen for the same reason. And ya wow that final table was just so weird all around. Ivey folding JJ was pretty weird even, and god Moon just literally seemed to have absolutely no clue what he was doing.
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Old 11-11-09, 10:17 AM
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Well, if what he said about never having played HU before is true, it would make sense that he had no clue what he was doing. Supposedly he's always chopped when it gets to HU.

Following the HU portion through twitter made me want both of them to somehow lose. (I dunno, maybe the ceiling cave in at the P&T theatre or something)
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Old 11-11-09, 02:37 PM
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I played with cada for a few hours at wsop. Seemed like a good player.
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Old 11-11-09, 06:03 PM
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Cada didn't necessarily play bad (Moon on the other hand might have displayed the worst final table performance I've ever seen. I really think if I gave my 7 year old cousin a basic starting hand chart and told him be aggressive and don't fold he could've done the exact same thing)

Anyway like I said Cada's play wasn't bad, although he made some questionable "gambly" decisions. He just got incredibly lucky in all in situations - I think he was all in for his tournament life 6 times on and only once was he ahead, the others he was a 80/20 dog (twice) or a flip.

Some of the questionable decisions i mentioned earlier

1- Just over min raising D. Moons River Bet on a 489A4 board when Cada raised pre, both checked the flop, Moonc heck called the turn then lead the river

Analysis: Decent bc he can size his raise so little bc Moon may have missed club or diamonds draws or 76 TJ and can not call anything. But bc its Moon, and Moon doesnt like to fold, if he has anything he's calling. I dunno if he had the read on Moon that we got from TV, but it seemed Moon like to play his drawing hands aggro b4 the river with semi bluffs, not play passive until the river then bluff

2- Calling Jeff Schuman's all in 3 bet with AJ for 6 million more into a 9 million pot, where losing leaves you with 5 big blinds

Analysis: Pretty bad IMO especially bc it cripples you if you lose and Schulman is the tightest player at the table and figures to have you drawing to 3 outs with the majority of his pushing range

3- Shoving with 44 over the top of phil ivey's raise preflop, for 5.5 M total, costing Ivey an extra 4.25 in a 7.7

Analysis: Don't really like it unless you are content to just flip coins for a double up or bust. It's not exactly is zero Fold equity move since Ivey didn't have that many chips and it's not quite 2:1 on his call (about 1.8:1). Cada did have 11 Big Blinds, not exactly the ideal resteal stack once the pot has been opened, since it's likely he's getting called and at best hes a flip, but enough where he can wait a LITTLE longer before pouncing.

4- Shoving all in for over 11 Million with 33 after Shulman opened for 1.75 Mill 5 Handed

Analysis: Very gambly, but at least he has an ideal resteal stack now (maybe even a little too big) with good equity. It's not terrible bc Shulman has shown that he wants to avoid big pots and has backed down from 3 bets all in before and it is for a large percentage of his stack. Regardless though, 5 handed, I wonder what hands Shulman opened with hes tossing and what hes calling with.

5- Four betting all in with 22 BvB for 33 Million more after Opening to 2.55 Mill and getting 3 bet to 5.75 Mill. 33 Mill represented half of BB's stack. We are 3 handed

Analysis: Gambley and slightly reckless although BB is probably 3 betting a large range of hands that can not call and some that will include AK which we flip with. His reraise size is smaller though which usually incidicates a stronger hand, calling is half his stack, and we are 3 handed. I just think there's better spots, although overall not terrible

If other people wanna chime in with opinions on these 5 plays I'd be interested
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Old 11-11-09, 07:27 PM
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Hand 1 - I think Cada flopped a flush draw. Not sure why he doesn't c-bet. Like this board is unlikely to hit Moon and it's not like you're trying to win with 6 high. Like it's nice to pot control and everything, and see cheap turn/rivers and hope to hit...but most of the time you don't. The river bluff raise is really bad. You're playing an amateur who has shown interest....amateurs aren't going to fold to a small raise when they have so many chips.

Hand 2 - Bad. At best you're hoping for like Tens. Everything else crushes you and the few hand you're doing well against is flipping. He's been avoiding marginal spots and his coach is Hellmuth...so it pretty much rules out most small and mid pairs. Like the pot odds were decent, but at the same time, Shulman knows this as well. Shulman is never really going to mess around vs an UTG raise here.

Hand 3 - It's not bad. Given the situation....I wouldn't mind flipping in this spot. It's the ME....of all tournaments in the world, this is one where first place overlay is so much greater than any others. I wouldn't mind gambling vs the toughest opponent, because you can knock him down and get back into it at the same time...or you're out. The flat payout structure too...so need to go big or go home. The only real consideration is how much of Ivey's range is a pair and how much of it is two overs. If the range is right....I think flipping with an overlay (blinds+antes) and a % edge with the hand is correct.

I think Kurn's analysis on this hand misses the point. It wasn't 2 to 1 on the call. Ivey had to call 4.35 million to win 7.7 M. That's 1.77 to 1. He needs to win this 36.1% of the time for it to be a correct call. The math is going to be close vs Cada's range. Ivey opens from Mid position 7 handed. Assuming Cada assigns Ivey with a "normal range", Cada's range has to be narrower...since he is expecting to get called vs Ivey's range.

So when Ivey looks at it, it eliminates a lot of weak aces from Cada's range, since 3-bet shoving A-rag is going to get crushed by Ivey's range. So Cada is gonna shove pairs, high aces, and high paint cards. Assuming Cada's shoving range is 22+, A9+, KQ - through poker stove, A8o has 34.8% equity. So he doesn't have the correct odds to call.

In addition to all the math, the key point to address is that Ivey is calling and likely to lose. Even if it is mathematically correct to call, the chip Ivey loses in this all in will hurt him significantly. If he folds, the chips he saves hold significant value.

So for Ivey to call, he really has to decide how wide is Cada's range..what the math is, how winning/losing pot affects his chances of winning. In the end Ivey couldn't overcome the pot odds to fold....but like he said...he was looking for a way to fold....and it wouldn't be terrible to have done so.

Hand 4 - It's ok. Not the best spot for him...it really depends how often you think Shulman is calling...and what his calling range would be. If Shulman folds hands like 44-99 then it's a decent spot....but I'm not sure Jeff would in this spot. I really don't think Shulman has been out of line but his comments on the A8 vs 44 hand....maybe makes Shulman more likely to fold. It's probably close between folding and shoving.

Hand 5 - I don't like this hand at all. First raising 2.5x blind vs blind from sb....it's not a good play against a good player in the bb with a lot of chips. I don't know what the blind vs blind confrontation has been like before...but in general, you don't want to blow the pot up with a small pair oop.

In any case, once he get's raised...he put himself into an awkward spot. With 39 BB's and 22 blind vs blind....I think if you believe you're the best player left...you fold. Especially with Darvin there. I guess it's unexploitable to shove in this spot...so I can't blame you for doing so....but generally don't like flipping at best situations with 39bb's in your stack.

I'm sure Cada played well to get to the final table, but he did a lot of things in the final table that I consider to be bad. Especially heads up. I don't understand why he keeps blowing up the pots vs an aggro spewy player. Cada is known as a heads up specialist...but seriously played it so poorly.

Cada should have been like a 3 or 4 to 1 favorite against Moon heads up....the way he played it, he was probably a dog.

I'm sure Cada is a good player, but there's a lot he can learn...but that's what you can say about every player.

As for Moon, I don't understand why ppl are all over him. Like yes he played poorly. Anyone with poker sense knows it, but he's never been advertised as a great player. He's a fish, everyone knows it, he admits it himself...why is everyone knocking him. Shouldn't we be keeping the fish happy in this game. He did somethings that were really bad...but at the same time other pros did the same thing.

Eg. His AQ vs Steve's QQ hand...was a super overshove that will only get called when he's dominated...well Buchman did the exact same thing with AQ vs AK.

Watching the final table, the only players that didn't really make any clear mistake was Sauot, Ivey, and some of the guys that got knocked out early.
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Old 11-11-09, 08:17 PM
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I didn't read all of the above yet, so I apologize if this has been addressed, but the thing that tilted me the most was Moon's lie to his wife.

It's like a 234 board or something and there is > $40 million in the pot. It's $6 million more for him to call (with his horribly played KQ) and he folds. He then tells his wife:

-He folded QQ....
-BECAUSE he though his opponent had AK with a flush draw....
-and he thought he'd get there and didn't want to give him $6 million more.

WHAT
THE
FUCK???

Being embarrassed about your horrible play is one thing, but to make up a lie that makes you sound 10 times worse than saying "I got caught bluffing" is just ridiculous. I mean, the fact that that line could even make any amount of sense to him in his brain is just ridiculous.

As for the rest of the play, keep in mind, we were seeing a very small sample of the hands played. That may not make up for all of it, but it certainly could explain some of it. Like I don't have a problem with Ivey folding the JJ there at all. If it turned out he was up against QQ+/AK 90% of the time (could very well have been his read), it's a good fold. Only because people saw he was up against 77 are they being results oriented. If he was up against AA, people would say it was a great fold, and had he been up against AA and 4 bet shoved, people would say it was awful. I'm willing to give Phil Ivey a little bit of credit and say I'm sure he had a good reason for making the read he did and it was fine.

Schulman's comment about the A8 call on the other hand... wow. Just goes to show how huge of a nit he is. He and his Helmuth style gave him no chance to win, basically blinding down until it was 5 handed. Nice job moving up a few spots.
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Old 11-11-09, 08:28 PM
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The Moon line was even funnier bc his wife hears and replies something along the lines of YEA thats the kinda player he is he gets lucky. Or something. HAHAHAHA oh god.

As for the Ivey Cada A8 44 hand, Im kinda in the same boat as Windbreaker. While I don't agree with Schulman's take of him being a sick puppy by calling, i don't think it's as easy of a call as you guys think. I think the call represented over 1/3 of Ivey's Chips and would've left him with 9 Million or something. And with a hand as bad as A8 your gunna be dominated mostly, and flipping vs two paint cards or smaller pairs the rest of the time. The odds are tempting, but it's not quite 2:1 and this isn't a cash game. I think its a lot closer than people are giving it credit for.

On the subject of Schulman, I dont think his strategy was that bad. Play tight and let the idiots donk themselves out, hopefully picking up a pot or two along the way, then open up when it gets 5 or 6 handed. If he wins his 80/20 race vs Cada we would've gotten to see if that indeed would've been the case (opening up and going for the win now)

As far as Buchman's AQ play we didn't see the whole hand (dunno why???) but I believe it's in a different boat than the Moon/Begs hand, bc there were multiple raises. Like when Begs opens for 1.5 and Moon shoves 22 Mill in the middle like wtf? Does he ever have AA or KK here? I think not. In the Buchman hand he was bluffing by representing a bigger hand hoping to get JJ to fold or something and since it was multiple raises it actually could make sense.

Overall though I have played with Buchman a few times in AC and also watched him play pretty closely in the last 2-3 tables of the 2007 Harrah's WSOP Circuit Event that he finished 2nd in (the same once that Adrian final tabled hence why I was watching so close). His play never really impressed me too much and he seemed to overvalue hands in some spots and bet strange amounts in others. He has a good tournament resume so I can't knock the guy, but thats just my opinions on what I saw from him.
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Old 11-11-09, 09:17 PM
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I think both Cada and Moon were both horrible people to win as far as attracting a new influx of players are concerned, and I think Cada was even worse. With Moon, people prob get turned off from poker b/c they're like wow this guys terrible and just won, but at same time that might attract players, and older players. Cada winning, ofc it's some online kid that plays constantly so all the older newer players feel like they have no chance, and he just seemed annoying to me, saying he would be "crushed" if he didn't win the ME when going into the FT of the biggest tourny of the year, and first year you're ever playing it and have Ivey sitting there, just annoyed me. Really really wish the french dude would have won, and he seemed to play the best and just got unlucky.
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Old 11-11-09, 09:20 PM
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I think we can all agree had the French dude made it to the final table he would have just surrendered.
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Old 11-11-09, 09:43 PM
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Here is Buchman's AQ hand - I believe Sauot has about 44 mill to begin the hand with blinds 500k/1M and 150k ante.

Hand #264 - The Largest Pot of the Tournament
Eric Buchman has the button, and Darvin Moon is sitting out this hand. Buchman makes it 2.5 million to stay in, and Antoine Saout announces a re-raise from the big blind. He puts out a three-bet totaling 9 million, and Buchman wastes no time moving all in over the top of that.

The shove sends Saout spiraling into the think tank, and he spends a long, quality session in there. Several minutes of gear-turning pondering follow, and Saout looks a bit unsure of his decision. Finally, and quietly, he says, "I call." Buchman has the covering stack, and so it's Saout now all in and at risk. The news is good though.

Showdown
Buchman:
Saout:

The flop comes out , drawing a big reaction from the crowd for the first time in what seems like hours. The turn pairs the board with the , changing nothing, and the awakened crowd again grows loud. The fills out the board, and that too is a blank for Buchman.

In the biggest pot of the 2009 Main Event, Antoine Saout has picked up the monstrous double. He's skyrocketed all the way up to 89,200,000, while Buchman is left with just 9,800,000 chips to work with.
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Old 11-13-09, 08:28 PM
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See this I don't believe is close to the same category as the Moon hand.

For starters I think we were 4 handed at this time, increasing the value of AQ tremendously and increasing the likelihood that his button raise (particularly with a player sitting out) would be played back at lightly. Also the final 4 bet is a total of 43-44 BBs but the pot is 14-15 BBs already and everyones M is lower than in the Moon case bc its short handed

In the Moon hand I believe the blinds were 500k, and he shoved in 22Mill plus which is the same 44ish BBs but this time the pot is only 5 BBs, 1/3 the size and everyones M is higher. In addition this was 6 handed i believe and Moon was facing a UTG raise into 5 others.
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