The TalkingPoker.com Forum  

Go Back   The TalkingPoker.com Forum > All Things Poker > Poker on TV
Register Blogs Arcade HH Converter Calendar Mark Forums Read

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-09-05, 11:37 AM
BrianSwa's Avatar
BrianSwa BrianSwa is offline
Banned
 

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,757
BrianSwa has between 100 and 249 Rep PointsBrianSwa has between 100 and 249 Rep Points
Default Moneymaker explains his play

anyone see this last night on tv? It was the main event explained by moneymaker. He went throught the final table and explained what he was thinking on each hand.
  #2  
Old 05-09-05, 11:42 AM
BlibbityBlabbity's Avatar
BlibbityBlabbity BlibbityBlabbity is offline
Run Silent || Run Deep
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,403
BlibbityBlabbity has between 750 and 999 Rep PointsBlibbityBlabbity has between 750 and 999 Rep PointsBlibbityBlabbity has between 750 and 999 Rep PointsBlibbityBlabbity has between 750 and 999 Rep PointsBlibbityBlabbity has between 750 and 999 Rep PointsBlibbityBlabbity has between 750 and 999 Rep PointsBlibbityBlabbity has between 750 and 999 Rep Points
Default

Didn't see it but let me guess....

"See now, here's what I was doing...I had a dice under the table and right before the action got to me I would roll the dice. If it came even, I raise all in. Odd, I call and if it is neither, I fold."

Am I close???
  #3  
Old 05-09-05, 11:47 AM
BrianSwa's Avatar
BrianSwa BrianSwa is offline
Banned
 

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,757
BrianSwa has between 100 and 249 Rep PointsBrianSwa has between 100 and 249 Rep Points
Default honestly


honestly it was actully very good and made good sence. He must of read some books in last 2 years. "chris we want you to explain yourself"....."wait I have to finish reading this stack of books 1st".
  #4  
Old 05-09-05, 11:54 AM
Penguinfan's Avatar
Penguinfan Penguinfan is offline
<<<<<
 

Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,432
Penguinfan has between 500 and 749 Rep PointsPenguinfan has between 500 and 749 Rep PointsPenguinfan has between 500 and 749 Rep PointsPenguinfan has between 500 and 749 Rep PointsPenguinfan has between 500 and 749 Rep PointsPenguinfan has between 500 and 749 Rep Points
Default

Let's be honest, outside of the heads up bluff against Sammy Chris did nothing but get lucky several times, catching the 8 when he was way behind against Brenes, catching the Ace against Ivey when he was again way behind, etc... not to mention surviving several coin flips. He got as lucky as he had to be to win that tournamnet. With creative wording I can justify any play that I make and have it sound like professional logic.
__________________
If aces didn't get cracked they would be writing books about me!
  #5  
Old 05-09-05, 11:57 AM
BrianSwa's Avatar
BrianSwa BrianSwa is offline
Banned
 

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,757
BrianSwa has between 100 and 249 Rep PointsBrianSwa has between 100 and 249 Rep Points
Default yep


I never said he didnt get lucky as hell, just saying this time around he sounded like he knew what he was talking about. I agree he got lucky as hell a bunch of times.
  #6  
Old 05-09-05, 02:09 PM
Zybomb's Avatar
Zybomb Zybomb is offline
TP Live Ring Specialist
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 6,607
Blog Entries: 7
Zybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Points
Default

I honestly think Raymer got luckier than Moneymaker. Raymer simply won every single coin flip, and in addition won hands where he had an underpair, or when he was dominated (AJ vs A10 ex). Lets also not forget his all in flush dra against The Mouth, in which he could of been eliminated.

Moneymaker made some tough decisions that were correct (ie the call f Boyd's all in raise on the flop with just pocket threes) Granted both got lucky (and u need to be EXTREMELY lucky to win a tournament of that size) I think Raymer was by far the luckier one
  #7  
Old 05-09-05, 02:43 PM
Penguinfan's Avatar
Penguinfan Penguinfan is offline
<<<<<
 

Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,432
Penguinfan has between 500 and 749 Rep PointsPenguinfan has between 500 and 749 Rep PointsPenguinfan has between 500 and 749 Rep PointsPenguinfan has between 500 and 749 Rep PointsPenguinfan has between 500 and 749 Rep PointsPenguinfan has between 500 and 749 Rep Points
Default

Completely disagree. Raymer had outs when he went all in against Matusow who actually made a horrible call in that spot. Moneymaker was the one calling all-in bets with inferior hands and catching up. Calling against Brenes's AA with 88 and 2 over cards on the board was just inexcusable, he had to be pretty sure he had 2 outs at best. If you cite Raymers play against Matusow then you have to equally hate Moneymakers play that knocked Chan out of the tournament, Chris CALLED an all in with nothing but a draw. I totally agree you have to get lucky to win a tournament these days, but Chris played FAR worse and got FAR luckier than Raymer did. Raymers good cards held up in coin flip situations, Moneymaker was content to call on the short end of things and catch.
__________________
If aces didn't get cracked they would be writing books about me!
  #8  
Old 05-09-05, 03:03 PM
Talking Poker's Avatar
Talking Poker Talking Poker is offline
Adminimus Maximus
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Florida Coast
Posts: 27,480
Talking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Points
Default

There will never, ever, be another WSOP Main Event Champion who people won't criticize for getting lucky. You HAVE to get lucky to win. It's simply not possible to not win without getting lucky. Playing solid poker day in and day out for that long, getting lucky along the way or not, these guys have my respect.

I'm not saying you guys are saying they don't deserve it or anything... I just think it's weird when people point out that the winner won a lot of coinflips and even some hands when they were behind. To me, that's so obvious. Of course that is going to happen. It has to.
__________________

Got RakeBack?
27% at Full Tilt | 33% at Cake Poker | 30% at Carbon Poker
  #9  
Old 05-09-05, 03:26 PM
Penguinfan's Avatar
Penguinfan Penguinfan is offline
<<<<<
 

Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,432
Penguinfan has between 500 and 749 Rep PointsPenguinfan has between 500 and 749 Rep PointsPenguinfan has between 500 and 749 Rep PointsPenguinfan has between 500 and 749 Rep PointsPenguinfan has between 500 and 749 Rep PointsPenguinfan has between 500 and 749 Rep Points
Default

Agree completly TP, I'm just saying that Raymer was the agressor in most coin flips and yes he got/stayed lucky to win them. Moneymaker CALLED from behind and caught up, big difference in my opinion. That hand against Brenes just sticks out in my mind, I would love to hear Chris explain that one, especially after he commented about knowing he was in big trouble during the actual play of the hand. If he knew he was in big trouble then that had to mean he had 2 outs at best and put the majority of his stack at risk knowing this, horrible play and caught a 2-outer, hard to defend. Being the agressor with the cards Raymer did is much different than calling with the cards Moneymaker did.
__________________
If aces didn't get cracked they would be writing books about me!
  #10  
Old 05-09-05, 04:14 PM
omahilo omahilo is offline
sports betting guy
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,163
omahilo has between 100 and 249 Rep Pointsomahilo has between 100 and 249 Rep Points
Default

Also Raymer had about 15 million in chips so he could do pretty much anything he wanted to do.

The most Moneymaker or Farha had at 1 time was 4 mill and change.
  #11  
Old 05-09-05, 05:45 PM
Tony Cheval's Avatar
Tony Cheval Tony Cheval is offline
Seven Card Stud
 

Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,349
Tony Cheval has between 250 and 499 Rep PointsTony Cheval has between 250 and 499 Rep PointsTony Cheval has between 250 and 499 Rep Points
Default

Exactly, Raymer did what he was supposed to do with his big stack. They also had him do this 'running commentary' thing on his win like a couple months ago.
__________________
Smooth, but not rich.
  #12  
Old 05-10-05, 09:07 AM
Kurn's Avatar
Kurn Kurn is offline
cha'DIch of the Poker Gods
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Warwick, RI
Posts: 3,584
Kurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep Points
Default

I agree 100%. People have made judgments on the quality of play of these guys after watching about 2% of the hands they played. Yeah, Moneymaker got luck against Brenes, but he had a bigger stack. Did it ever occur that he must have played reasonably competent prior to that point to even have that big a stack?

Last year there was a huge debate on 2+2 about Moneymaker calling Ivey's all-in with 10 left, with a bunch of know-it-alls saying it was a stupid call. The problem was, it wasn't a stupid call, it was a good call. Anybody who says they'd lay down top trips/top kicker to a player as aggressive as Ivey doesn't deserve to even make the comment. Even if you compltely discount Ivey making that play with JJ or TT, the range of hands is 99 (3), 66(3), KQ(4), AQ(3), QJ(4) and QTs (1). Add in pure bluff (10%), and even assuming that Ivey is twice as likely to make the move while ahead, Moneymaker is ahead better than half the time *and* has 7 outs when he's behind. Now consider that a) he's still alive if he loses and b) he already stands to make more than 200% his annual salary if he busts out 10th.

Ridiculously easy call.

To win a 800+ player tournament you have to both play well and get lucky. One of the two won't cut it (which is why with these size fields, Hellmuth is a huge dog to ever win again).
  #13  
Old 05-10-05, 11:26 AM
Dante1963 Dante1963 is offline
Fish
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 14
Dante1963 has less than 10 Rep Points
Default

I agree with Kurn. Sure he had to get lucky, but he needed a lot more than just luck to get to the final table. He played aggressively throughout the tournament, and wound up with a nice chip stack to work with. By the time he got to the final table he was already a winner. His house was going to be paid for and his new baby's college fund was going to be paid in full. That made some of his decisions an awful lot easier.

The only thing I wonder about is that Moneymaker kept talking about tells--specifically, when he said that Farha bet with one hand when he was weak and the other when he was strong. To me, that sounded an awful lot like a guy who hasn't played much high stakes live poker. That sounded like a home game player to me. I mean, I'm not ruling out tells, but Sammy Farha is one of the top cash game players in the world. Does anyone really think he could do that if every time he was bluffing he grabbed his chips with his left hand and when he had the nuts he used his right? That just struck me as nonsense.
  #14  
Old 05-10-05, 02:38 PM
BrianSwa's Avatar
BrianSwa BrianSwa is offline
Banned
 

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,757
BrianSwa has between 100 and 249 Rep PointsBrianSwa has between 100 and 249 Rep Points
Default bullshit

not saying either greg or chis are good players is bullshit, they had to beat a feild of a couple hundred then turn around and beat a feild of a couple thousand. As anyone knows that is alot easier said then done, we all play MTT so we know it is hard just to get past the 1st step in that. They both deserve the win!
  #15  
Old 05-10-05, 03:05 PM
Aequitas58's Avatar
Aequitas58 Aequitas58 is offline
Fmr. Resident Asshole
 

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 3,783
Aequitas58 has between 1000 and 1499 Rep PointsAequitas58 has between 1000 and 1499 Rep PointsAequitas58 has between 1000 and 1499 Rep PointsAequitas58 has between 1000 and 1499 Rep PointsAequitas58 has between 1000 and 1499 Rep PointsAequitas58 has between 1000 and 1499 Rep PointsAequitas58 has between 1000 and 1499 Rep PointsAequitas58 has between 1000 and 1499 Rep Points
Default

I completely forget this hand... can you possibly give details? Chip stacks, cards, suits, who made what move, etc etc?
__________________
  #16  
Old 05-10-05, 04:17 PM
Zybomb's Avatar
Zybomb Zybomb is offline
TP Live Ring Specialist
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 6,607
Blog Entries: 7
Zybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Points
Default

10 players left, one more elimination until the final table....Moneymaker was the chip leader at this point, I dont recall Iveys chip position but it wasnt in the top 3. Ivey had pocket 9s, Moneymaker had AQ. Another player had 10,10. Moneymaker opened the pot preflop and the two players called. The flop landed QQx. Moneymaker bet 70,000, Phil Ivey called with 9s, and the player with 10s folded. The turn came a 9, giving Ivey a full house. Moneymaker lead out and bet again, Ivey pushed in, Moneymaker instantly called. He became disgusted once Ivey showed his hand, and then on the river an Ace came giving Moneymaker the bigger fullhouse
  #17  
Old 05-10-05, 04:19 PM
Kurn's Avatar
Kurn Kurn is offline
cha'DIch of the Poker Gods
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Warwick, RI
Posts: 3,584
Kurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep Points
Default

Absolutely correct. BTW, Greg won a 'Stars double shootout for his entry in '04, and '04 was not the first time he made the money in the WSOP main event.
  #18  
Old 05-10-05, 04:21 PM
Aequitas58's Avatar
Aequitas58 Aequitas58 is offline
Fmr. Resident Asshole
 

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 3,783
Aequitas58 has between 1000 and 1499 Rep PointsAequitas58 has between 1000 and 1499 Rep PointsAequitas58 has between 1000 and 1499 Rep PointsAequitas58 has between 1000 and 1499 Rep PointsAequitas58 has between 1000 and 1499 Rep PointsAequitas58 has between 1000 and 1499 Rep PointsAequitas58 has between 1000 and 1499 Rep PointsAequitas58 has between 1000 and 1499 Rep Points
Default

That's it. Thanks for the refresher.
__________________
  #19  
Old 05-10-05, 04:23 PM
Kurn's Avatar
Kurn Kurn is offline
cha'DIch of the Poker Gods
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Warwick, RI
Posts: 3,584
Kurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep PointsKurn User has between 2000 and 2499 Rep Points
Default

To fill in the blanks, Jason Lester was the player with TT, I believe, and the flop was Q-Q-6, and on the turn, Chris again bet $70,000.
  #20  
Old 05-10-05, 05:18 PM
Talking Poker's Avatar
Talking Poker Talking Poker is offline
Adminimus Maximus
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Florida Coast
Posts: 27,480
Talking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsTalking Poker has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Points
Default

I remember seeing this hand. I don't remember what Ivey's stack size was compared to Chris', but the call sounds perfectly reasonable to me. You have to think Ivey could make they play with a lot of hands worse than Chris'. Realistically, only 99, 66, anf Q9 beat him. He's ahead of everything else.
__________________

Got RakeBack?
27% at Full Tilt | 33% at Cake Poker | 30% at Carbon Poker
  #21  
Old 05-10-05, 06:01 PM
Zybomb's Avatar
Zybomb Zybomb is offline
TP Live Ring Specialist
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 6,607
Blog Entries: 7
Zybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep PointsZybomb has between 3000 and 3499 Rep Points
Default

With Moneymakers chip stack and facing a player as aggressive as Ivey , I make this call 100% of the time
  #22  
Old 07-08-05, 04:17 PM
JDMcNugent7's Avatar
JDMcNugent7 JDMcNugent7 is offline
Cardinals FTW
 

Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,481
Blog Entries: 3
JDMcNugent7 has between 1500 and 1999 Rep PointsJDMcNugent7 has between 1500 and 1999 Rep PointsJDMcNugent7 has between 1500 and 1999 Rep PointsJDMcNugent7 has between 1500 and 1999 Rep PointsJDMcNugent7 has between 1500 and 1999 Rep PointsJDMcNugent7 has between 1500 and 1999 Rep PointsJDMcNugent7 has between 1500 and 1999 Rep PointsJDMcNugent7 has between 1500 and 1999 Rep PointsJDMcNugent7 has between 1500 and 1999 Rep PointsJDMcNugent7 has between 1500 and 1999 Rep PointsJDMcNugent7 has between 1500 and 1999 Rep Points
Default

I understand that there are certain times criticism is necessary, but do u realized how easy it is to criticize this amazinly players when we can see EVERYONES hole cards and they can't. Also, we see probably 2% of the hands and of course they show all the big suckouts- I hate when ppl critisize their play so much because then i feel if i would ever win the big tourny, I would just have to deal with tons of critisism soon after.
  #23  
Old 07-08-05, 11:03 PM
Eman885 Eman885 is offline
Banned
 

Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 37
Eman885 has between -10 and 0 Rep Points
Default

wow, your wrong again here. Moneymaker had a pair of aces and the flush draw w/ two cards to come. Also Moneymaker is better than you will ever be.
  #24  
Old 07-08-05, 11:05 PM
Eman885 Eman885 is offline
Banned
 

Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 37
Eman885 has between -10 and 0 Rep Points
Default

He actually talks about this hand in his book. I will post it later.
  #25  
Old 07-08-05, 11:09 PM
Eman885 Eman885 is offline
Banned
 

Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 37
Eman885 has between -10 and 0 Rep Points
Default

it does sound like nonsense, but this was moneymaker's first live tournament, and he probably was just trying to pick something up even though it is pretty obvious Farha wouldn't be successful if he had that tell.
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
©2004-2008 TalkingPoker.com