Short-Handed Limit Quiz

sjay2k · #1 09-13-05, 11:57 PM

These questions all relate to standard-issue loose online players in 6-max limit. These are just some situations off the top of my head that I seem to encounter every time I play.

1. You have Js Jc on the button. You raise, the BB calls and so does the limper before you. The flop is Ks -Td - 6d. They both check. You?
2. Assume you bet the flop and they both call. The turn is 8s. They both check. You?
3. Assume you bet the turn and the limper calls. The river is the 2h. Limper checks. You?
4. The river is the 2d. Limper checks. You?
5. The river is the As. Limper checks. You?
6. The river is the 9d. Limper bets. You?

7. You have Ad Ks UTG. You raise and the button and BB call. The flop is Qs - Td - 8h. The BB checks. You?
8. Assume you bet the flop and the button calls. The turn is the 7s. You?
9. Assume you check the turn and the button bets. You?
10. Assume you bet the turn and the button calls. The river is the 2s. Do you bet/fold, check/fold, check/call or check-raise?

11. You have Kh Qh on the button. MP raises. You?
12. You have As Jc in MP. UTG raises. You?
13. You have 66 in the SB. MP raises. You?
14. You have 99 in the SB. UTG raises and button 3-bets. You?
15. You're UTG with 44. You?

16. You have Qd Td in the SB. It's folded around to you, you raise and the BB calls. The flop is 8d - Js - 4h. You bet and the BB raises. What's your plan?

17. You have 66 on the button. It's folded to you, you raise and the BB calls. The flop is 7h - 4s - 2s. The BB bets. What's your plan?

18. You are on the button with Qs Ts with a board of Qh - 4h - 5s -- 2s -- 8s. The SB, who has bet and raised every street, leads out. The BB, who has called down every street, raises. You?

I'll post my thoughts after I see some responses from you guys. If you don't understand the questions, let me know and I'll clarify for you.

Talking Poker · #2 09-14-05, 12:22 AM

I assume you are just looking for answers, and not reasons behind them correct? At least not right away, yes? Or do you want detailed responses to each question?

I'll answer, but I want to wait for a couple of other responses before I do. No, not so I can copy off of pshabi, but because I'll answer without even reading the other responses first, and I don't want my answers to sway anyone's opinions.

6 max limit is my best game. I'm not saying I'll answer every one of these questions "correctly," but I am saying that all my answers combined will produce a winning player.

Zybomb · #3 09-14-05, 12:39 AM

Answers in Bold.

Very interesting Quiz -- limit hold em is not my specialty so my answers may not be 'textbook' correct, but Id be very interesting in hearing responses from you and other who disagree with my decisions. I tried to include my logic in most of my answers --

Im also interested to see how close my answers are to Shabi, TP and some of our other Limit experts around here.

2Tone · #4 09-14-05, 01:06 AM

Answers inline.

PShabi · #5 09-14-05, 08:25 AM

Not enough time, I'll return to answer the rest in a bit.

PShabi · #6 09-14-05, 12:25 PM

Nice post SJAY. Most of these are very tough from 9 on down. I hate hate hate these situations and I'm never comfortable.

PShabi · #7 09-14-05, 12:29 PM

#12 = bad ( I can't coldcall, ever)
#17 = Worse (you can't play 6-max like that, IMO)
#18 = You have a flush! Did you miss that? I can think of a lot of hands you beat even given the action on the river.

PShabi · #8 09-14-05, 12:34 PM

Z,

You may want to give this 6-max LHE thing a chance. Great analysis.

BTW, I play 6-max, but I am definitely not an expert. I consider myself better than average, but I have a ways to go.

I am looking forward to reading TPs thoughts so I can compare them to mine. If he's pretty much in line with what I've said, well, I'm just going to have to believe I've been running bad since the beginning of time.

Talking Poker · #9 09-14-05, 12:59 PM

Ok, I haven't read through the other answers yet, but here are mine. For now, I'll just give the answer, and then we can discuss specific ones later if people want to.

As with anything in poker, so much of the time, "it depends," so if I only write one answer, that's what I USUALLY do, but not what I ALWAYS do.

One more thing - my answers are for 5/10 and 10/20 6 max, which may be a lot different (probably much more aggressive) then the lower limits.

Answers in bold below.

Great post, sjay.

Talking Poker · #10 09-14-05, 01:27 PM

I just read through the other responses, and it looks like we agree on most of the situations, except for the borderline ones that are so tricky, where one could make a case for any action.

2Tone - I think you need to crank up your aggression a bit to be successful at 6 max. I'm hoping you didn't realize that you have a flush on #18, because you simply can not fold there. Folding the best hand there would be a HUGE mistake and could likely turn a winning session into a loser. pshabi's logic for 3 betting is ok, but I still prefer the call, myself.

What other ones should we discuss? Any questions about my answers?

PShabi · #11 09-14-05, 01:34 PM

Nice analysis on #10.

I'm surprised you advocate cold-calling in #11 and #12. I just hate it. I don't feel comfortable playing the hand after that. I like being the leader too much.

I like your analysis on the last item, but I feel like your ahead enough here to make a raise for value. I still think some "typical" players call two from the SB with a strong hand that you beat. People have a hard time laying down anything at 3/6.

Zybomb · #12 09-14-05, 01:48 PM

I like your analysis on #18 as well (Im not sure if it changed my mind or not but its still a good point)

Im confused as to the the AJo hand in response to an UTG raise. In 6 max is this raise not as respected? (I realize its the equivilant of a MP raise) It just seems you'll miss often and be in trouble sometimes when you hit as well -- i understand reraising (more of an aggression steal than a value raise) but cold call? It'll pay off sometimes but...

Talking Poker · #13 09-14-05, 01:55 PM

I like being ahead AFTER the flop, which we will be when we raise his flop bet - we have position, remember? I prefer to play KQs as a drawing hand against multiple opponents. By reraising, it's too likely you are isolating the field down to a single opponent, and one that may very well have you beat. He's going to either call your reraise or cap. I can tell you that nowm without you putting those extra bets in, so information-wise, I don't think you'll have much more by 3 betting. All you are doing really is scaring away the blinds or anyone else who may have come in to the pot if you cold called. I WILL reraise there against very loose opponents, but against the average guy, I like to call and then crank it up after the flop.

I'm more inclined to 3 bet the AJ than I am the KQ, but we're only in MP in that scenario, which is not a good place to be with AJ...

Yes, we are ahead most of the time. If we call, the SB will call with his AQ, but if we raise, he'll probably dump it. Maybe this is one of the differences between 3/6 and the slightly higher limits...? Yeah, I don't really see raising here being positive EV. Remember, when you're beat, raising is going to cost you TWO more bets. When you have the best hand, it will either cost you one bet, it will wash (most of the time), or you'll gain 2 bets at the most.

It's close.

Talking Poker · #14 09-14-05, 01:58 PM

You'd be amazed at what people (myself included) will raise with from UTG in 6 max limit. Me, personally - I will certainly raise from UTG with hands as weak as AT and KQ and usually with hands as weak as KJ, KT, QJ and even QT.

Still respect my UTG raises?

PShabi · #15 09-14-05, 02:10 PM

I made this same point in a conversation the other day and that's why I'm reraising preflop against players who raise like me. There are people in my games who are raising a much higher % preflop than I am and they do it from UTG with AceBullshit offsuit. Some strong players even LAG it up like that.

If I raise UTG with K10 and get 3-bet I'm not feeling great after that. Playing unimproved while out of position is bad news. On the contrary, I've found that against liberal raisers (I REFUSE to refer to myself as loose) I take down a lot of pots before showdown without improving. I'm thinking about expanding and making this 3-bet with A10 or at least A10s because of the shit that gets raised up front.

I've been trying to muck Q10 and QJ offsuit up front lately. I used to raise those too but I think I can muck them UTG at least. I'm a nit-picker.

I know the value of suited cards isn't regarded as that much in a 6-max game, but I don't necessarily agree.

PShabi · #16 09-14-05, 02:14 PM

Give me a scenario where you make this play?

Are you saying you'll cold-with AJ, see a uncoordinated flop and raise his insta-bet?

Say the flop is 10 6 6 and he leads?

What about Q, 8, 2?

2Tone · #17 09-14-05, 02:23 PM

I missed the flush on 18. My mistake.

This has been valuable for me, and a perfect illustration of the difference between 6 max and a full ring game. At a Party 2/4 or 3/6 full ring game with three or four callers and up, low to middle pair just isn't going to win the hand unless you make your set on the flop.

Meanwhile, I'm much more comfortable with the role of rock than maniac. In theory playing so tight (and transparently) should hurt my win rate -- and it would if I was playing with stronger opponents, who might, say, respect my re-raises. But instead, they'll keep calling me down with top pair against a flush or straight. So I go right on folding marginal hands, and hammering away with premium hands.

Which is a recipe for a slow but steady win rate at full low limit table of monkeys, but would likely get me slaughtered at a crafty 6-max table.

Quint · #18 09-14-05, 02:30 PM

I messed up and read the other responses before I attempted to answer them myself. Being new to the 6-max limit game I realized that the answers I was giving were probably influenced more by what I had just read than how I've actually been playing, so I scrapped them. Great post though, and great responses as well.

TP's last statement above raises more questions for me, but rather than hijack this thread I'll start a new one.

Talking Poker · #19 09-14-05, 04:03 PM

I may have made a typo., When I said I like to be "ahead" after the flop, I meant to say I like to have the "lead" after the flop... in other words, I don't care who is in control preflop nearly as much as I do after the flop.

As for this scenario, yes, I certain would insta-raise his insta-bet on the T66 flop with my AJ. If that doesn't slow him down (if he reraises), I know he's got a big pair and I can fold. If he calls and checks the turn to me, I can bet no matter what the card is and often take down the pot. AK doesn't look so good with a board of T66x (x=not A or K) and a guy who called your preflop raise, raised you on the flop, and now is betting the turn. He'll usually fold. If not, at least I figured out where I'm at in the hand.

As for the Q82, I'd probably fold to his flop bet here. The board isn't scary enough to make him go away. But think about it, I lost 2 small bets here playing it my way. By reraising preflop flop and then betting the flop, I'd be in for AT LEAST 3 small bets preflop (often 4), and AT LEAST one bet on the flop (often 2). I've put 4 small bets into the pot and I have nothing. Yes, I'm playing aggressively, but I'm probably going to lose this hand. Abnd we haven't even talked about how much trouble I can and will get into on the turn and river (especially if I pair up).

Do you see the difference (IMO) about using that aggression preflop vs. postflop? I think it's SO MUCH stronger after the flop. Your preflop raise will never get him to fold, but after the flop, it might. If not, at least you can establish control of the hand, or get off it cheap.

6 max is all about selective aggression. Be aggressive when you have a made hand. Be aggrssive when you have a good draw. Be aggressive when you think you can get your opponent off his medium or worse hand. Fold everything else.

There is a fine line between selective aggression and being a maniac. I'd like to think I'm the former.

Talking Poker · #20 09-14-05, 04:12 PM

One thing to remember: Not everyone who plays 6 max is "crafty." In fact, most of the people who play there are action junkies. They are impatient and they don't knpow the difference between selective aggression and being a maniac (see above).

Then, of course, there are the passive guys who sit down with 8 BBs or whatever. They usually don't last 10 minutes.

Talking Poker · #21 09-14-05, 04:13 PM

Good plan.

I love this thread and hope it wins the longest thread contest, but let's try to stay on topic. We're covering enough in here already.

Aequitas58 · #22 09-14-05, 06:24 PM

This is a great thread, I have been following it - albeit not closely - largely because I'm in MTT-mode.

sjay2k · #23 09-15-05, 04:07 AM

Some interesting responses! Here are mine.

I'll post some analysis later

sjay2k · #24 09-16-05, 02:33 AM

Okay, the first question that got some different answers was #3 (whether to value bet JJ on a KT682 board, where the flush draw missed the river).

I think this is an easy value bet. If the limper had a flush draw, he might call down with a pair of 8s or 2s. You will probably also get called down by a pair of 10s or something like 77 (most likely IMO). A weak King is highly unlikly, and the river did not improve the limper's hand.

Talking Poker · #25 09-16-05, 12:32 PM

I don't think a weak King is as unlikely as you do, but the more I've thought about this, the more I think a value bet is in order and that is how I play it... MY %s were wrong. I'm probably more like 75 or 80%% value bet and 20 or 25% check. It really depends on my opponent.