The one thing the majority MAY be missing

Penguinfan · #1 03-20-05, 07:17 AM

Haven't posted in a while, but spent some time reading through the threads and it seems (to me anyway) that there is one overriddng point that people are missing. Lots of people want to know how to play a certain hand in a certain position, well this isn't blackjack, there isn't a set of rules to follow. Some people are on to something when they say your cards only matter when you have to show them, meaning if you can bluff people out of evey pot then you can have any two cards in your hand and it won't matter, this is true, but falls short of the real point. The real point is that your cards matter very little, IT'S YOUR OPPONENTS CARDS THAT MATTER. The strenght or weakness of your opponents cards are what matters. Nobody seems to want to pay attention to how the other guy is playing, just that they are holding KK and "how should I play it". Your KK is rag/rag against 2 pr or Aces, thats right very pretty rags, but still rags.
I play in tournaments and people complain about the guy who is betting all the time, well when you limp into a pot and the flop is 6-9-3 rainbow and somone fires out a few hundred chips it is very unlikley they are betting on their cards, rather they are betting you missed the flop, get it. I see people all-in with a King high flush, if you do this then kill yourself now. What are you hoping for here? You are only getting a call if you are beat, plain and simple you are risking your stack without the possibility of gain, again in this case your cards don't matter, only your opponents.
I'm not saying you can play any two cards and just push everyone out of every pot, but rather that you need to have some idea of what someone else is playing, or what they could possibly be playing with after the flop comes out. Maybe your Ace high is good and maybe your AA is beat. Everyone puts so much emphasis on starting hands that they forget the most important part is playing after the flop. If you think I am wrong then just add this one small play to your arsenal. When you are in the hand after the flop with the big blind and the flop had two of any suit on the board and you end up with just one opponent try to figure out if he is chasing the flush, if he checks and calls then there is a good chance he is, check the turn and when the flush doesn't fall bet the river and see if he folds, odds are you will pick up the pot with any two rags in your hand because he missed his hand. You didn't make your hand, but betting he missed his is just as good.

Worry more about post flop play than pre flop play and learn to throw away second best hands, your bankroll will thank you for it.

Feel free to disagree

Talking Poker · #2 03-20-05, 11:04 AM

I've posted this before, but it's certainly worth posting again: As your poker game improves, you advance through a number of "levels." In the list below, Penguinfan is saying Level 1 people need to get to Level 2, which is true, but keep in mind how much farther there is to go.

1. Knowing what you have.
2. Knowing what your opponent has.
3. Knowing what your opponent thinks you have.
4. Knowing what your opponent thinks you think he has.
5. Knowing what your opponent thinks you think he thinks you have.

Everyone starts their poker career at Level 1, and only the best of the best make it to Level 5 (I can't even comprehend thinking like that at this point in my career). As Penguinfan says, it's important to at least get to Level 2, but with regard to bluffing successfully, I think it's even more important to get to Level 3. Beyond that, we're talking pretty serious poker, which usually doesn't apply to playing online - certainly not for low stakes.

Penguinfan · #3 03-20-05, 12:01 PM

1. Knowing what you have.
2. Knowing what your opponent has.
3. Knowing what your opponent thinks you have.
4. Knowing what your opponent thinks you think he has.
5. Knowing what your opponent thinks you think he thinks you have.

What was that, some sort of bad Bugs Bunny routine?

ChipFish · #4 03-20-05, 12:17 PM

They are the levels of a poker player.
And it goes beyond even that.

junYUN · #5 03-20-05, 01:55 PM

theres so much to learn

Zybomb · #6 03-26-05, 06:05 PM

I agree with the jist of everything in your post, but the reason so much emphasis is put on starting hands is that by playing starting hands correctly you avoid paying off players when both of you hit. Im not talking about how to put your opponent on a draw and then bet him out on the river if the draw missed even if you have nothing...thats a different aspect of the game.

If you are calling raises with Q10o and the flop hits a 10 high, you risk paying off k10, A10, 1010, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, or a set of whichever the other two cards were. You can avoid the situation entirely by knowing what starting hands to play when and how to play them. Im not saying I will never blind steal with an 8,2 every once in a while at a passive table where the blinds are worth stealing...but thats also knowing what to play when and how. By playing your cards correctly preflop you are setting yourself up to win more of the pots you do enter... That is why emphasis on starting hands is there.

Granted, Just as important, is being able to read the board after the flop, turn and river...where your flush draw example comes in...thats when you are playing your opponents cards, but preflop (Im assuming you are at a random table with no knowledge of the players as of yet) more times than not you are playing your own cards,

Penguinfan · #7 03-26-05, 07:20 PM

I agree with what you just said, it just seems to me that people are only paying attention to what is in their hand and give no consideration to what people would have to have to call you with. Good example is if you have AK and the flop is A-J-10 I have seen people bet that AK like it's the nuts, but anytime there is a straight possible in the kill zone like that you have to give it consideration. Thats an extreme example, but even with AK and a flop of k-7-8 you have to be careful if you get played back at because so many people will play suited connectors and may have 2 pair. Maybe I have been drawn out on so many times I am just paranoid, but it seems some consideration to what the other player has may save a bet or two along the way.