read PT numbers

[Talking Poker]

So tell me again how this guy is a LAG by your definition then, when he's less than half as aggressive as the average player at these stakes (by your definition) and is limping/cold calling more pots preflop than he's raising?

Rereading what you wrote (when you misquoted me as being LESS aggressive than I was saying I am), I think you might be mixing up "loose" with "aggressive."

[stormswa]

I really wanted to just move on you know after you telling me I was a loosing player and shouldn't give advice but don't take it personal and all of course.

preflop he is loose but I guess he isnt as aggressive as I 1st stated, in 10max that high of a vpip is pretty loose, so guess he is loose/tight or loose/calling station or whatever you want to tag him as.

so against a player like this I would re-raise alot in position and value bet him on my good hands. If I'm wrong then I guess I have been reading the numbers wrong for last 2 years or so, if I'm soo far off please enlighten me. Instead of just saying I'm wrong and don't listen to me how about making a post that actually explains what you take from the numbers instead of baiting me in attempt to make me look stupid. Please enlighten us all sir. Mark this isnt a attack on you I just dont see you actully expalining what the numbers mean to you after like what 15+ posts in the thread. Telling me how horrible my advice is kinda has no point when you dont give the good advice to go along with it.

[Talking Poker]

If you want to move on, move on... I was simply trying to bring us back on topic and explain why I didn't agree with your advice - let alone how you were classifying this guy.

I mean, what the hell is loose/tight? Is that like being passive/aggressive or an intelligent moron or a female man or .
LOL... Sorry Brian, but you're all kinds of mixed up here.

Loose <> (does not equal) Aggressive.
Tight <> Passive.

You need to understand that right now. These are different concepts. When combined, you have the following 4 player types:

Loose/Aggressive (LAG - lots of flops, lots of raising... CAN be a winning style if played properly, but is usually a loser with huge variance)
Loose/Passive (Big loser - plays too many hands, calls down a lot)
Tight/Aggressive (Winning player - this is what you should strive for)
Tight/Passive (Nit - CAN be a winner, especially against bad opponents, but good opponents will tear this guy apart)

And that's it. Note that there is no Loose/Tight on the list.

As for me enlightening you, I guess I thought I wrote enough that it was obvious where I thought you were wrong, but if you want me to spell it out for you like I would someone that has never played poker before, I suppose I can...

Exhibit A - Player In Question:
VPIP 28
PFR 12
Total Postflop Aggression - 2ish

Exhibit B - Aggression of the "average" player at these stakes, according to you:
Total Postflop Aggression > 4 (> means GREATER than, btw)

Now, I thought pretty much anyone who can count (let alone anyone who knows anything about poker) would realize that 4 > 2 (4 is greater than 2) and would be able to deduce that the player in Exhibit A is therefore LESS AGGRESSIVE then the average player in Exhibit B. So I was wondering why you classified him as a LAG (Loose Aggressive). Taking it one step farther, he's putting money into 28% of the pots, but only raising 12%, meaning he's not raising 16% (more than half the time he's putting money in the pot). 16 is greater than (>) 12, so it's not like he crazy aggressive preflop either.

So, for you to look at this guy and compare him to the average player (again, we are going with your definition, since I don't play full ring OR these stakes) and label him as aggressive... I don't get that. I also didn't get how you would:

Wait... Why aren't you raising with hands like AQ preflop already??? You also said this guy is aggressive and we are supposed to play the opposite, but then you are advocating playing him more aggresively (raising AQ, for example) than you normally would (limping AQ, for example).

In other words, it just didn't make sense to me. I agreed with pieces of what you were saying, but not for the reasons you were saying them, and there were so many inconsistencies in what you wrote, I didn't even know where to start - hence my general comment about your post.

I really hope that's enough detail for you. If not, hopefully someone else will chime in, because as much as I've love to be your private poker tutor/math teacher... no wait... I wouldn't.

Feel enlightened yet?

[stormswa]

actually yes and I think that answered the original question very well, I actually got the numbers mixed up in my head and posted before really looking at the number deeply enough and just well made incorrect post.

If I could rep you for this post I would because it answered the original posters question very well, I gave the best answer to my knowledge but I admit I totally botched the numbers up. thanks for in depth post.

[Invigilator]

I really like that way of looking at it. Thanks for that insight especially!

[Invigilator]

With all that being said, and realizing that there are many more important numbers, and a lot of other considerations, (wind, elevation, latitude ) what is a theoretical VPIP and PFR that should frighten me at a 25 max table. (someone who is going to disect me)

Damn! less than a day and I already posted another question.

"Hi, my name is Invigilator and I have a poker forum problem"

all answer "Hi Invigilator"

[Nikita]

I don't really play full ring that much anymore, but I do play these stakes at 6-max.

The way I have my HUD set up is to be red at a VPIP of 20 or less. These guys are tight, they are only coming into the pot with the top hands. I don't want to be in a hand with these guys unless I have something strong.

Yellow is 20-30, I still need to be cautious with these guys, most of their hands will be good, but they are likely to mix it up with mediocre hands as well.

30 to 100 is green. These guys are too loose. They play too many hands. The higher the number the more hands they play. I'm more willing to play weaker hands against these guys as even if I do, my hand is still likely to be better.

As for PFR, the higher the number the more they raise. Someone near 0 is only raising premium hands, someone with a high number is starting to lean towards maniac status (in lots of pots and always betting and raising).

I tend to stay away from those who range from VPIP of 18 to 28 and who also have a PFR of 10 to 25. I find these guys are usually the decent players.

But take my advice with a grain of salt, I know I'm an amateur at poker and a break even player at best. And I'm a little too tight and not quite aggressive enough.

[stormswa]

that explains everything! there is not set number you should avoid you need to put the numbers together yourself to put the player in each category.