Rip my pt numbers apart (comments please)

[eejit101]

me 2, im as lost as jessica simpson in a library

[PShabi]

This is copy/pasted from elsewhere, so don't think I like you guys enough to type all this shit out.

Anyway, the definitions will follow but don't get too much into the average ranges given. Those are for FULL RING at microlimits. Nutbags stats are 6-max and the ranges are significantly different.

VPIP: voluntarily put $ in pot (%). There is no sweet spot for this number, but the typical range is between 15 and 20. A few posters manage with sub-15 VPIP's and a few posters manage with VPIP's in the low 20's. As you move up, this number will often drop a point or two. Your VPIP will not be uniform across all positions. You should generally be tighter in EP than in LP.

PFR: preflop raise (%). The typical range is 7-10. A few posters exceed 10, but many posters begin their first 10K hands at or below 7. Some suggest that PFR should be half your VPIP, but that's an effectual coincidence and should not be your goal. If you only have a VPIP of 13 or 14, you will still often have the same PFR of 8-9 as someone with a higher VPIP. Your PFR will often be higher in LP than in EP.

VPIP from SB: typical range 25-35. This stat varies greatly by your table selection. If you typically play at passive games, you can expect this to be on the higher end. If you are in aggressive games, it will be lower. If its much lower than 25, you are missing out on a few profitable situations for the partial price. If its much higher than 35, you are probably playing too often and underestimating the difficulties of playing out of position postflop. Consult a starting hand chart for more information.

Saw flop all hands: This is an effect stat of your VPIP's and your table selection. It is often about 5% higher than your VPIP. Discussion at 2+2 primarily involves the VPIP stat rather than this one.

Steal defense: At the micro limits, this situation occurs very rarely and you will generally not have a significant sample size even after playing 20K hands. It is much better to focus on specific hands for defending situations as its often highly opponent dependent.

Attempt to steal: This situation occurs a bit more frequently than steal defense, but still it will not be too common until you hit the higher end of the micro limits. This number will often be in the mid-upper 30's, but will vary depending on your table selection and overall aggressiveness.

WSD: went to showdown. This number typical falls into the 28-32 range, but varies by your style. It is helpful in identifying potentially major leaks and too high a number often represents overly loose play on the big streets. Too low a number often represents a "fit or fold" mentality where you give up on too many profitable situations by ignoring the pot size.

WSF: won $ when saw flop. By coincidence, this number also falls into the 28-32 range. It is mostly an effect stat. If it is very high (35+) you may be running well. A number below 28 may indicate a problem with protecting your vulnerable hands or folding too many winners. Like many stats, a specific number does not indicate a specific problem, only that there may be one and you should be posting hands where you had difficult postflop decisions.

W$SD: won $ at showdown. Varies between 50-58. Below 50 often indicates that you are seeing too many showdowns while a number which is too high may indicate that you are folding too many winners. In limit Holdem, a pot is often quite large on the end, thus you often need to be quite sure that you don't have the best hand to make folding on the end correct.

FRB: folded to river bet. Varies between 40-55. This stat is pointless to analyze by itself. In combination with WSD or W$SD, it may indicate a problem of folding too much on the end (or not enough). As long as its not incredibly low or high, there are better ways to spend your time.

AF: aggression factor. This is an arbitrary number representing the relative frequency of which you are the aggressor on each street. The numbers vary greatly by your style and posting specific hands is generally better to determine if your aggressiveness is appropriate. VPIP/PFR account for your preflop aggression, so generally ignore AF - PF. Your postflop aggression will typically be around 2 - 3 on each postflop street. The flop is often higher than the turn and river, often exceeding 3.0. A micro posters overall AF (not including PF) will typically be in the 2.0 - 3.0 range. Some posters report success with overall AF's over 3, but nearly none have AF's under 2. This is not a stat worth overanalyzing unless it is woefully low or maniacally high.

when folds (%): This is not a stat worth overanalyzing as its speaks nothing of the appropriateness of your actions. Typical numbers may look something like this, but the range of "appropriate" numbers could be quite wide. (no fold: 12 _ PF: 75 _ flop: 8 _ turn: 3 _ river: 2).

check-raises: This is often in the 1% to 2% range of all possible actions. It is not worth analyzing this stat to decide if you are "check raising enough". Post hands to do that.

Win-rate: The number everyone is concerned about and the number we can do nothing about. Be happy with anything above 0 BB / 100 hands. The measure used is big bets per 100 hands. This accounts for multi-tabling and limit differences whereas $/hr gives you no real indication of success. Don't fret with something below 0 BB/100 if you have a small sample size. Variance and downswings happen and they can be quite large (200+ BB losses) and extend over a long period of time (10K+ hands). Your winrate will decrease as you move up in limits. Since its asked all the time, a 3 BB/100 winrate at .50/1.00 (online) is often regarded as great. 6 BB/100 is probably unsustainable. Once you reach 2/4 (online), 2 BB/100 is great for the long term and 4 BB/100 may be unsustainable. Also, you will be a loser from the blinds. The blind commitment is too great to overcome by solid play.


Now you know what they mean. The hard part is figuring out what the hell your stats mean to you.

[nutbag]

Yeah, I'd be buying a house in a few months if this was 5/10 or better. 1/2 at party. But it's such stable money, I think I'm actually making more 4 tabling 1/2 instead of 3 tabling 3/6. My money here is coming from two words. Guess those? starts with a V.

Pshab (and others??), you're doing party 3/6 right? what kind of VPIP are you keeping nowadays? How do your checkraises compare to mine?
Do you recommend moving up?

[JDMcNugent7]

sweet man, thx SHab

[JDMcNugent7]

Wut EXACTLY does it mean to win 3bb/100.
mine was like .75/100 , is that bad ?

[nutbag]

You're playing 1/2 NL mostly right?

So per 100 hands you play you make $1.50 (2x.75) . But this stat has so much more variance in nl, it's not that dependable until you get an assload of hands. But for long term, unless you're playing 40/80 or higher, that's pretty bad, yes.

[PShabi]

Actually, I only "party" during bonuses right now but I'm going to start playing there again exclusively. Hopefully this weekend. I like Interpoker and I play UB, but that shit's been tough over there lately. I'll take a look at all of my stats later but my VPIP is only in the 23 range. I think I raise 17 or 18 preflop.

You have to be playing good poker with that winrate, but you have to realize that variance has been on your side a bit at least. 10k hands is pretty insignicant, but I have heard of people winning 4+BBs at that level for a more substantial amount of hands.

But playing that loose preflop and winning at that rate seems to be an indication of running GOOD AS A MOTHERFUCKER! You can play looser than I do, don't go me wrong. I'd like to find a way to be playing at 26/27, but I just don't know how.

As for moving up, I know you tried it once and struggled. Was the game that much different from 1/2? Anything major you noticed?

[nutbag]

Yeah, it's a completely different game. I was running at 8 for the first 8000, so I know i'm running well, but I think that 4-5 is easily sustainable at this limit. I think I'm able to keep my vpip up because i'm just so much better postflop that most 1/2 players(everybody who has a clue moves up after a while) . Getting pot odds and value betting are just so easy here.

I reread Small stakes hold em and it pretty much is all just a repeition of this one sentence. Put money in when your (percepted) pot equity is high enough, and manipulate your positon if possible. That helped me when before I always fell into thinking I deserve this pot, and i'm going to bet like it (which is just idiotic and lost me alot of money).

Moving up to 3/6, I think that there's still maniacs out there, but I'm not able to value bet as much as 1/2. I think the average 3/6 6maxer still has pretty atrocious preflop standars, but is much improved postflop. Thus playing 35-40 yeilds alot less value. I've taken stabs and am running better, but 4tabling 1/2 is great stable money at the moment (and my only income), so not to much in a hurry to move up.

Although I don't think i'm running tooooo well, it'll be interesting to see what the next few thousand bring.

[MathBabe]

This is great stuff, Pshabi.

I've added my results in bold, and taken out some text. These results are for the 1,400 hands I've played at .10/.20 at PokerStars in the past 11 days. Not a good sample size, I realize, but I think there's some interesting stuff here already.

I'll post separately about starting hands from the blinds.

I think it's safe to say from this that I'm going to showdown too often, and not aggressive enough.

[Talking Poker]

MB:

You seem to be focusing on the SB number, but I think that is the least of the red flags I am saeeing. Looks to me like you are not nearly aggressive enough - both before and especially after the flop. Your showdown number is also pretty bad, possibly implying that you are calling down too often and not getting off your losing hands soon enough.

Basic advice: Call less; bet, raise and fold more.

One more thing to keep in mind: For the microlimits you are playing, the "guidelines" may change a bit. But I think it's still worth looking over your numbers once in a while to see if something really stands out - like your lack of aggression does here.

[MathBabe]

Yup. You'll see me trying to figure that out in the next few days of hand histories I post. And how to fit that together with the advice to "learn to check and call the river". :-)

Don't worry, I go away Friday morning until the 27th, so you guys will get a break for a bit!

By the way, don't worry that I'm focused too much on the SB... I'm going to tighten up there but that's easy. I'm trying to find hands in PokerTracker that I can use to figure out where I could be more aggressive, but unlike the SB there's no easy to way to find hands where I called.

[Talking Poker]

You know..... you might be a really good candidate to do that video thing that pshabi did last week. Record a 15-20 minute session of yourself (or much long if you edit it down), and let us watch it and comment on any glaring errors we see.

If you have no idea what I'm talking about, start here:


Or better yet, here:

[Talking Poker]

BTW - Nice to see you back in the forum, MathBabe. You always post good questions than generate good discussion.

[MathBabe]

Thanks for both these posts...

I figure it only takes a minute to read a hand history, but thanks VERY much for the offer to spend 15 minutes watching a video! I'll play around with this when I get back from my folk's next week. I do know which thread you mean, and I've used video capture software before, so it should be no problem.

MathBabe